RIP Martin Crowe

Virgil

Stop being such a piston wristed gibbon

Donsteppa

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="563327" data-time="1457470525">
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Blah blah blah, Hick, Ramprakash, blah blah blah, honestly, I love Crowe really, but blah blah blah, Beefy quit, clearly not a hissy fit, blah blah, clichÃ© to justify self again, blah, internet tough guys blah blah blah 
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[/stuck record hour] 
 
I'm surprised you haven't found a way to say Crowe was too short to bowl spin... :)

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="563417" data-time="1457486014">
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[/stuck record hour] 
 
I'm surprised you haven't found a way to say Crowe was too short to bowl spin... :)
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You left out Hadlee being our only truly world class player and Cairns being a shoe in for our all time test XI.
 
Crowe was definitely the best international rep for Advanced Hair you could hope for though.
 
Graham Gooch, Greg Matthews and Warnie didn't have shit on him.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="563327" data-time="1457470525">
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Beefy quit cos he objected to how two of his mates got treated. Hardly throwing a hissy fit.
 
While I risk the wrath of a good old internet tough guy diatribe from Virgil by saying this it's worth remembering that first class stats only tell part of the story, I used the examples of Hick and Ramprakash earlier, well over 200 first class hundreds between them, both averaging over 50 yet respective test averages of 31 and 27 ( I was surprised Ramprakash played 52 tests, that's a shitload of chances to improve that he never took, I do remember Hick looking majestic when on song though ). Does that accumulation make them better than Crowe who "only" made 71? of course it doesn't. But you guys are using these arguments to support Crowe compared to other guys who may not have plundered runs at county level but who arguably did it better at test level which is of course the ultimate pinnacle of the sport.
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Ok, so much wrong with this but -
 
1) Hick played 526 1st class games, Ramps 461. Crowe 247. And weirdly, Crowe scored less 100's! Add to that Crowe has a significantly better 100 / inning ration than those 2. So even if that arguement weren't retarded. Its wrong.
 
2) The test of class would be great 1st class record, how did he go in tests? Hick & Ramps - great 1st class (although notably a long way south of Crowe on the all time lists), piss poor tests. Crowe, 15th all time 1st class, test tons v 7 test sides, average of 57 v the Pakistan of Imran, Wasim, Waqar & Qadir, 48 v aussie, no. 1 ranked batsman in the world at one stage etc. See the subtle difference?
 
I don't think anyone has ever called Crowe a great based on ONE area (1st class, tests, captainbcy, ODI's). What makes him a great is he delivered across all of them. Who has been written off by the Fern after being top 10 in tests (let alone no. 1) because his 1st class record is poor? 
 
And yes, beefy threw a hissy fit. Its legendary in country cricket the degree to which he threw his toys

Catogrande

To be fair to MN5 (God I feel dirty now) his comparison of Crowe to hick and Ramprakash was ONLY in response to someone else banging on about Crowe's FC record rather than his test record. I don't see that he was actually comparing them to Crowe in terms of ability, just that a good FC record does not naturally make a player a great. Which IMO Crowe most definitely was.
 
Beefy's hissy fit (well fits really - he had a few) was/are legendary but this particular hissy fit was not in regard to Crowe it was purely the way Richards and Garner were treated by Somerset, which was pretty shabby.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="563481" data-time="1457521199">
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Beefy's hissy fit (well fits really - he had a few) was/are legendary but this particular hissy fit was not in regard to Crowe it was purely the way Richards and Garner were treated by Somerset, which was pretty shabby.
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It said a lot about Beefy too in that he'd been negotiating with Warikishire to move there for a big payday then Garner & Viv got their contracts not renewed & he left Somerset "on principle". He had always been going & going purely for money, the Viv / Garner issue just let him imply it was spur of the moment because he stands by his mates. As opposed to what he'd been negotiating for months which was to piss off for more cash & leave his mates hanging.

Catogrande

Well I'd not heard that one before Gollum. If true, why did he not go to Warwickshire?

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="563484" data-time="1457523050">
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Well I'd not heard that one before Gollum. If true, why did he not go to Warwickshire?
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Sorry Wooster not Warks
 
I knew it started with W. I'm going off Atherton in the Times this week when discussing Crowe.

Siam

Yeah Beefy chucked a fair old one towards Roebuck and Crowe was slight collateral damage
 
Roebuck was a fine cricket writer too....comparisons end about there though

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="563006" data-time="1457313946">
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On a World stage was he one of the best ? that's debatable, from his era that's an honour I'd bestow on the likes of Border, Gavaskar, Miandad, Richards.......
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I'm sure you've got a point MN5, but you can't go around writing sentences like this...
 
Yes, he most certainly was one of the best

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="563478" data-time="1457517742">Ok, so much wrong with this but -

Hick played 526 1st class games, Ramps 461. Crowe 247. And weirdly, Crowe scored less 100's! Add to that Crowe has a significantly better 100 / inning ration than those 2. So even if that arguement weren't retarded. Its wrong.
The test of class would be great 1st class record, how did he go in tests? Hick & Ramps - great 1st class (although notably a long way south of Crowe on the all time lists), piss poor tests. Crowe, 15th all time 1st class, test tons v 7 test sides, average of 57 v the Pakistan of Imran, Wasim, Waqar & Qadir, 48 v aussie, no. 1 ranked batsman in the world at one stage etc. See the subtle difference? 
I don't think anyone has ever called Crowe a great based on ONE area (1st class, tests, captainbcy, ODI's). What makes him a great is he delivered across all of them. Who has been written off by the Fern after being top 10 in tests (let alone no. 1) because his 1st class record is poor? 
And yes, beefy threw a hissy fit. Its legendary in country cricket the degree to which he threw his toys</blockquote>
 
I stood up and liked this post. 
Did anyone see the stat where Crowe has one of the best 100:50 ratios in FC cricket of all time? 
You have to be 6 kinds of blind to deny Crowe is not a great of the game, enforced by the fact most of the plaudits are coming from overseas. By other greats of the game.. A little known bowler called Wasim Akram ( actually one of the best if not best left armers the game has known) said Crowe was one of the best he ever bowled too. 
And he said that before Crowe died, it wasn't some lip service respect for a fallen cricketers bs like we got with Phil ( about to reclaim the Aussie opening spot and go on to be the greatest) Hughes. 
If you have read Crowes autobiographies and biographies you would have read for most of his career he carried the burden of expectation. 
Apart from a golden period in the mid 80s, for most of Crowes career we were shit. He batted mostly with guys who had a fraction of his talent, so if he failed NZ generally would fail. There were a lot of guys behind the scenes who didn't like Crowe and made his time as captain fucken tough. As well as tough for coaches like Warren Lees who he worked bloody well with. ( who should share a lot of the plaudits for the strategies from the 92 WC) 
The flash point was the bombing in Sri Lanka not long after the 92 WC. 
Half the team along with Lees came home, they had no choice really. But NZC treated them all fucken awfully. In the end Crowe was left carrying a team it's best player, stand in coach and selector. Making do with replacements who weren't ever going to be good enough. 
On top of all that he suffered from an undiagnosed ailment for several years that left him struggling for energy. He struggled for years with a serious knee injury, and as famously written he toured England in 94, scored 2 magnificent 100's basically playing on one leg. 
Fuck anyone who says he's not a great of the game.

Donsteppa

Cue MN5 finding another angle to downplay Crowe, before insisting that there's no way he's downplaying one of the best players we've ever had, you Internet Tough Guys.

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="563527" data-time="1457555809">Cue MN5 finding another angle to downplay Crowe, before insisting that there's no way he's downplaying one of the best players we've ever had, you Internet Tough Guys.</blockquote>
 
If Crowe was Scottish it would be different.

MN5

Shit, what an internet hiding, now I know how davidav and Paarlbok must have felt. Some of you had some very compelling arguments.
 
Without sounding like the ramblings of someone who's taken too many virtual punches and kicks do I dare mention that his test average is not even in the top 63 of all time ? ( I'd expand the stats more but cricinfo is playing up, it stops at 48 ) Is it in the top 100 ?
 
Did you fluffybunnys all miss the point I made when I said he's undeniably a kiwi great. Second name down on the team sheet. That's extremely high praise. 
 
Anyone going to his funeral or are you all playing golf instead ?

Donsteppa

Right on schedule!

dogmeat

Crowes average is 88th in an all time list of batsmen who have played 20 tests or more. Now personally top 100 over nearly 140 years of test cricket is a pretty compelling argument for greatness. Particularly when you accept that anything pre (an arbitrary) 1920 should probably be discounted as it was almost a different game. In addition there have been lots of arguments about the other reasons for Crowes elevation apart from just his average. You yourself MN5 said he's the greatest kiwi batsman of all time. Well not according to his average! Kane and Ross Taylor are both ahead of him and Rigors tucked in just behind. Man, Aquinas would love to have been able to contribute to this thread

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="563579" data-time="1457567296">
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Right on schedule!
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Would have done so a bit earlier but I was out and about, trying to think of something else to say.....ummmmmm he was heaps better than Jeff ?

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="563582" data-time="1457567730">Crowes average is 88th in an all time list of batsmen who have played 20 tests or more. 
Now personally top 100 over nearly 140 years of test cricket is a pretty compelling argument for greatness. 
Particularly when you accept that anything pre (an arbitrary) 1920 should probably be discounted as it was almost a different game. 
In addition there have been lots of arguments about the other reasons for Crowes elevation apart from just his average. 
You yourself MN5 said he's the greatest kiwi batsman of all time. Well not according to his average! Kane and Ross Taylor are both ahead of him and Rigors tucked in just behind. 
Man, Aquinas would love to have been able to contribute to this thread</blockquote>
 
I wonder how many of those 87 higher ranked test batsman faced Dennis Lillie and Jeff Thompson at age 19 in their maiden test series.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="563604" data-time="1457569970">
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I wonder how many of those 87 higher ranked test batsman faced Dennis Lillie and Jeff Thompson at age 19 in their maiden test series.
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My mates wife faced a couple of balls ( amongst other things ) from Jeff Thomson back in the day. My mate is actually much prouder of that than she is and what went on tour stayed on tour......

dogmeat

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="563604" data-time="1457569970">
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I wonder how many of those 87 higher ranked test batsman faced Dennis Lillie and Jeff Thompson at age 19 in their maiden test series.
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 or faced Larwood and Voce bowling bodyline 
or a spofforth off break 
or a Bosanquet googly :huh:
 
I wonder how many of us considered Crowe an all time global great a month ago

The Silver Fern

RIP Martin Crowe