RIP Martin Crowe

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="563484" data-time="1457523050">
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Well I'd not heard that one before Gollum. If true, why did he not go to Warwickshire?
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Sorry Wooster not Warks
 
I knew it started with W. I'm going off Atherton in the Times this week when discussing Crowe.

Siam

Yeah Beefy chucked a fair old one towards Roebuck and Crowe was slight collateral damage
 
Roebuck was a fine cricket writer too....comparisons end about there though

Siam

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="563006" data-time="1457313946">
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On a World stage was he one of the best ? that's debatable, from his era that's an honour I'd bestow on the likes of Border, Gavaskar, Miandad, Richards.......
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I'm sure you've got a point MN5, but you can't go around writing sentences like this...
 
Yes, he most certainly was one of the best

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="563478" data-time="1457517742">Ok, so much wrong with this but -

Hick played 526 1st class games, Ramps 461. Crowe 247. And weirdly, Crowe scored less 100's! Add to that Crowe has a significantly better 100 / inning ration than those 2. So even if that arguement weren't retarded. Its wrong.
The test of class would be great 1st class record, how did he go in tests? Hick & Ramps - great 1st class (although notably a long way south of Crowe on the all time lists), piss poor tests. Crowe, 15th all time 1st class, test tons v 7 test sides, average of 57 v the Pakistan of Imran, Wasim, Waqar & Qadir, 48 v aussie, no. 1 ranked batsman in the world at one stage etc. See the subtle difference? 
I don't think anyone has ever called Crowe a great based on ONE area (1st class, tests, captainbcy, ODI's). What makes him a great is he delivered across all of them. Who has been written off by the Fern after being top 10 in tests (let alone no. 1) because his 1st class record is poor? 
And yes, beefy threw a hissy fit. Its legendary in country cricket the degree to which he threw his toys</blockquote>
 
I stood up and liked this post. 
Did anyone see the stat where Crowe has one of the best 100:50 ratios in FC cricket of all time? 
You have to be 6 kinds of blind to deny Crowe is not a great of the game, enforced by the fact most of the plaudits are coming from overseas. By other greats of the game.. A little known bowler called Wasim Akram ( actually one of the best if not best left armers the game has known) said Crowe was one of the best he ever bowled too. 
And he said that before Crowe died, it wasn't some lip service respect for a fallen cricketers bs like we got with Phil ( about to reclaim the Aussie opening spot and go on to be the greatest) Hughes. 
If you have read Crowes autobiographies and biographies you would have read for most of his career he carried the burden of expectation. 
Apart from a golden period in the mid 80s, for most of Crowes career we were shit. He batted mostly with guys who had a fraction of his talent, so if he failed NZ generally would fail. There were a lot of guys behind the scenes who didn't like Crowe and made his time as captain fucken tough. As well as tough for coaches like Warren Lees who he worked bloody well with. ( who should share a lot of the plaudits for the strategies from the 92 WC) 
The flash point was the bombing in Sri Lanka not long after the 92 WC. 
Half the team along with Lees came home, they had no choice really. But NZC treated them all fucken awfully. In the end Crowe was left carrying a team it's best player, stand in coach and selector. Making do with replacements who weren't ever going to be good enough. 
On top of all that he suffered from an undiagnosed ailment for several years that left him struggling for energy. He struggled for years with a serious knee injury, and as famously written he toured England in 94, scored 2 magnificent 100's basically playing on one leg. 
Fuck anyone who says he's not a great of the game.

Donsteppa

Cue MN5 finding another angle to downplay Crowe, before insisting that there's no way he's downplaying one of the best players we've ever had, you Internet Tough Guys.

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="563527" data-time="1457555809">Cue MN5 finding another angle to downplay Crowe, before insisting that there's no way he's downplaying one of the best players we've ever had, you Internet Tough Guys.</blockquote>
 
If Crowe was Scottish it would be different.

MN5

Shit, what an internet hiding, now I know how davidav and Paarlbok must have felt. Some of you had some very compelling arguments.
 
Without sounding like the ramblings of someone who's taken too many virtual punches and kicks do I dare mention that his test average is not even in the top 63 of all time ? ( I'd expand the stats more but cricinfo is playing up, it stops at 48 ) Is it in the top 100 ?
 
Did you fluffybunnys all miss the point I made when I said he's undeniably a kiwi great. Second name down on the team sheet. That's extremely high praise. 
 
Anyone going to his funeral or are you all playing golf instead ?

Donsteppa

Right on schedule!

dogmeat

Crowes average is 88th in an all time list of batsmen who have played 20 tests or more. Now personally top 100 over nearly 140 years of test cricket is a pretty compelling argument for greatness. Particularly when you accept that anything pre (an arbitrary) 1920 should probably be discounted as it was almost a different game. In addition there have been lots of arguments about the other reasons for Crowes elevation apart from just his average. You yourself MN5 said he's the greatest kiwi batsman of all time. Well not according to his average! Kane and Ross Taylor are both ahead of him and Rigors tucked in just behind. Man, Aquinas would love to have been able to contribute to this thread

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="563579" data-time="1457567296">
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Right on schedule!
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Would have done so a bit earlier but I was out and about, trying to think of something else to say.....ummmmmm he was heaps better than Jeff ?

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="563582" data-time="1457567730">Crowes average is 88th in an all time list of batsmen who have played 20 tests or more. 
Now personally top 100 over nearly 140 years of test cricket is a pretty compelling argument for greatness. 
Particularly when you accept that anything pre (an arbitrary) 1920 should probably be discounted as it was almost a different game. 
In addition there have been lots of arguments about the other reasons for Crowes elevation apart from just his average. 
You yourself MN5 said he's the greatest kiwi batsman of all time. Well not according to his average! Kane and Ross Taylor are both ahead of him and Rigors tucked in just behind. 
Man, Aquinas would love to have been able to contribute to this thread</blockquote>
 
I wonder how many of those 87 higher ranked test batsman faced Dennis Lillie and Jeff Thompson at age 19 in their maiden test series.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="563604" data-time="1457569970">
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I wonder how many of those 87 higher ranked test batsman faced Dennis Lillie and Jeff Thompson at age 19 in their maiden test series.
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My mates wife faced a couple of balls ( amongst other things ) from Jeff Thomson back in the day. My mate is actually much prouder of that than she is and what went on tour stayed on tour......

dogmeat

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Virgil" data-cid="563604" data-time="1457569970">
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I wonder how many of those 87 higher ranked test batsman faced Dennis Lillie and Jeff Thompson at age 19 in their maiden test series.
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 or faced Larwood and Voce bowling bodyline 
or a spofforth off break 
or a Bosanquet googly :huh:
 
I wonder how many of us considered Crowe an all time global great a month ago

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="563607" data-time="1457570482">
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 or faced Larwood and Voce bowling bodyline 
or a spofforth off break 
or a Bosanquet googly :huh:
 
I wonder how many of us considered Crowe an all time global great a month ago 

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An average over 40 in the 70's/80's/90's given the fast bowlers going around is very impressive, I'll freely admit that.

Rancid Schnitzel

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="563577" data-time="1457566662">
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Shit, what an internet hiding, now I know how davidav and Paarlbok must have felt. Some of you had some very compelling arguments.
 
Without sounding like the ramblings of someone who's taken too many virtual punches and kicks do I dare mention that his test average is not even in the top 63 of all time ? ( I'd expand the stats more but cricinfo is playing up, it stops at 48 ) Is it in the top 100 ?
 
Did you fluffybunnys all miss the point I made when I said he's undeniably a kiwi great. Second name down on the team sheet. That's extremely high praise. 
 
Anyone going to his funeral or are you all playing golf instead ?
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Please reflect on those names in bold for a moment. One was a demented Seppo, the other a demented Saffa who believed the Cavaliers were much better than the 87 RWC team. That is the company you now keep.
 
You have only one option to redeem yourself. Apologize profusely for your sacrilege and then self-flagellation with a Martin Crowe signed Duncan Fearnley. Off you go heretic.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Rancid Schnitzel" data-cid="563612" data-time="1457571185">
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Please reflect on those names in bold for a moment. One was a demented Seppo, the other a demented Saffa who believed the Cavaliers were much better than the 87 RWC team. That is the company you now keep.
 
You have only one option to redeem yourself. Apologize profusely for your sacrilege and then self-flagellation with a Martin Crowe signed Duncan Fearnley. Off you go heretic.
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I just wanted you guys to like me......

Virgil

Think we have all said a few times averaging 50+ today is like 45+ in the 70s and 80s 
Which is why the stat of Crowe averaging higher than anyone else from 85 to 91 is relevant. 
A favourite stat of mine that MN5 loathes is that if you ignore Crowes early 7 tests ( when he was clearly not ready to face Lillie and Thompson) and his last 4 or 5 tests web he was literally hobbling on 1 leg, his average is over 50. 
Yes you can pick apart any player and make their stats look better. But Crowes circumstances are very much different, especially when you factor his compelling and utter World Class FC record. 15th best of all fucken time.

Donsteppa

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="dogmeat" data-cid="563607" data-time="1457570482">
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 I wonder how many of us considered Crowe an all time global great a month ago
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Me.
 
Following that ABC grandstand interview I learned to reconcile Crowe the player/captain/writer, and Crowe the commentator as two different people.

Rancid Schnitzel

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="563613" data-time="1457571345">
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I just wanted you guys to like me......
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Just imagine how you'd feel if someone told you that Chris Gayle was not a God. Well that's how we all feel right now.

Virgil

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Donsteppa" data-cid="563615" data-time="1457571596">Me. 
Following that ABC grandstand interview I learned to reconcile Crowe the player/captain/writer, and Crowe the commentator as two different people.</blockquote>
I've known Crowe is/was a great since I was 13 years old (1985)

The Silver Fern

RIP Martin Crowe