6N England v Ireland
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@catogrande keep the full rc for punch, kick, knee etc, but these ones deserve either a new colour card or the 20 min one where a team can send on a replacement.
Is amazing though that some (on social media) see that option as opening the game up to coaches/players using it for a moment of thuggery, consequences be damned đ¤Ś
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@catogrande said in 6N England v Ireland:
I think we still need a full red card sanction for utter shithousery but something a bit more than the current yellow for stuff that is detrimental to player welfare but is accidental, what would have be just been a rugby incident not so long ago.
like, say, a 20 min player reduction and the player can't return?
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@bones said in 6N England v Ireland:
@nzzp well yeah but this happened on the ball right in front of the ref, soon after he'd given a red. Why was it not even looked at?
Because rugby is tough to referee. Slow motion makes things look much worse than they are. And accidental contacts/rugby incidents are now being treated the same as shitty actions or poor technique.
If you want to change behaviour, you have to re-weight risk and reward. Right now, the reward for staying high-ish is that you may get a dominant tackle, and occasionally get a card of some form. Players should expect that if they go high they will get penalised for sure, every time. That will change the behaviour quickly, or wreck the game (remember the 'mucks' in the ELV?)
Right now, I can understand why players go for dominant tackles. Law makers are fiddling around the edges, as it's the heart of a physical contest, and taking collision away fundamentally alters the sport. To really effect change, you'll probably have to reset the tackle/post tackle/offload/ball placement/ruck formation situation, and fundamentally change what players need to do there. But it won't be rugby as we know it, it'll be a variant on it.
Gnarly issues; NRL solved this by putting players on report, with cards incredibly rare. I wonder if a straight 10-20 minute yellow + don't come back for most offences is the shot, and leave straight reds for the intentional.
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@mikethesnow said in 6N England v Ireland:
It's high time that coaches and captains in their post-match interviews stopped blaming the officials and started acknowledging that one of their player's indiscretions - regardless of intent - gave the match officials, including the TMO, no other option but to send the player from the field.
James Ryan is 2.03m tall
Ewels had a legal target area of approx. 1.6m
This is a coaching issue.
What's forgotten in incidents like this is James Ryan's match was over after 82 secs.
Quite possibly he'll be out next weekend too.
Plenty of these types of vids floating around YouTube this morning
Sexton, who has form for being a cheap bastard, gets away scot-free based on this footage. Would like to have seen a close-up.
Could easily have been two reds in the same passage of play.
The thing about the red is was Ewels actually trying to effect a tackle?
Ryan had already passed and was continuing his run as a blocker.
For me it looked as though Ewels was trying to absorb the momentum of Ryan running into him, rather than trying to take Ryan down.
Flip side Ryan running into Ewels to take him out of defensive line.
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
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@bones said in 6N England v Ireland:
@nzzp I'm not talking about obscure hits, if I can see them real time then surely one of four officials can too. Raynal set the bar and failed to follow through. Maybe refs need to be held to the same scrutiny they set out.
I agree, pickign up all the dodge would reduce it significantly.
But remember - obvious on TV, and obvious on the field with bodies around and multiple things to look at is way, way harder.
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@bones said in 6N England v Ireland:
@nzzp I'm not talking about obscure hits, if I can see them real time then surely one of four officials can too. Raynal set the bar and failed to follow through. Maybe refs need to be held to the same scrutiny they set out.
Jonker was definitely selective in bringing these incidents to Raynal's attention.
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@bovidae said in 6N England v Ireland:
@bones said in 6N England v Ireland:
@nzzp I'm not talking about obscure hits, if I can see them real time then surely one of four officials can too. Raynal set the bar and failed to follow through. Maybe refs need to be held to the same scrutiny they set out.
Jonker was definitely selective in bringing these incidents to Raynal's attention.
that, and host broadcasters being suuuuper choosy about which ones to replay over and over and over make a difference. And it shouldn't, it damages the game and ultimately both teams.
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@nzzp said in 6N England v Ireland:
@bones said in 6N England v Ireland:
@nzzp I'm not talking about obscure hits, if I can see them real time then surely one of four officials can too. Raynal set the bar and failed to follow through. Maybe refs need to be held to the same scrutiny they set out.
I agree, pickign up all the dodge would reduce it significantly.
But remember - obvious on TV, and obvious on the field with bodies around and multiple things to look at is way, way harder.
What's that T part in TMO again? đ
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@nzzp said in 6N England v Ireland:
@bovidae said in 6N England v Ireland:
@bones said in 6N England v Ireland:
@nzzp I'm not talking about obscure hits, if I can see them real time then surely one of four officials can too. Raynal set the bar and failed to follow through. Maybe refs need to be held to the same scrutiny they set out.
Jonker was definitely selective in bringing these incidents to Raynal's attention.
that, and host broadcasters being suuuuper choosy about which ones to replay over and over and over make a difference. And it shouldn't, it damages the game and ultimately both teams.
It was an England home game...
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@billy-tell said in 6N England v Ireland:
Canât take a video seriously with that soundtrack.
Haven't watched it with the audio, but if it's Miles Harrison, yeah, it'd be hard to take seriously
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@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
@mikethesnow said in 6N England v Ireland:
It's high time that coaches and captains in their post-match interviews stopped blaming the officials and started acknowledging that one of their player's indiscretions - regardless of intent - gave the match officials, including the TMO, no other option but to send the player from the field.
James Ryan is 2.03m tall
Ewels had a legal target area of approx. 1.6m
This is a coaching issue.
What's forgotten in incidents like this is James Ryan's match was over after 82 secs.
Quite possibly he'll be out next weekend too.
Plenty of these types of vids floating around YouTube this morning
Sexton, who has form for being a cheap bastard, gets away scot-free based on this footage. Would like to have seen a close-up.
Could easily have been two reds in the same passage of play.
The thing about the red is was Ewels actually trying to effect a tackle?
Ryan had already passed and was continuing his run as a blocker.
For me it looked as though Ewels was trying to absorb the momentum of Ryan running into him, rather than trying to take Ryan down.
Flip side Ryan running into Ewels to take him out of defensive line.
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
Interesting thought but as clumsy as Ryan may have been, Ewels went into contact high. Under the current protocols thatâs a red.
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@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
The thing for me which needs to be fixed is the penalty for clumsy play is the same as for malicious, dirty stuff.
Punish careless, clumsy play for safety's sake by all means, but there has to be a different in-match penalty from the dirty, malicious stuff like kicking a blokes head.
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@victor-meldrew said in 6N England v Ireland:
@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
The thing for me which needs to be fixed is the penalty for clumsy play is the same as for malicious, dirty stuff.
Punish careless, clumsy play for safety's sake by all means, but there has to be a different in-match penalty from the dirty, malicious stuff like kicking a blokes head.
The theory is to get better technique coached into players. To an extent that has worked but you could also have a strong argument that it hasn't.
Take someone like Ofa (please). Was a shocker at not lowering or driving up if he did. I don't see a lot of improvement tbh. He's still at risk of being 'clumsy'But yes, accidents and the like being punished the same as grub acts doesn't have the correct balance. You can stop yourself throwing a roundhouse easier than getting out the way of an unintended head clash.
But that is why the 20minute RC was suggested. It was England (and other NH teams) that shot that down.As we know from history though, when England get shafted due to Laws the Laws (or interpretations) change quickly.
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@crucial said in 6N England v Ireland:
@victor-meldrew said in 6N England v Ireland:
@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
The thing for me which needs to be fixed is the penalty for clumsy play is the same as for malicious, dirty stuff.
Punish careless, clumsy play for safety's sake by all means, but there has to be a different in-match penalty from the dirty, malicious stuff like kicking a blokes head.
The theory is to get better technique coached into players. To an extent that has worked but you could also have a strong argument that it hasn't.
Take someone like Ofa (please). Was a shocker at not lowering or driving up if he did. I don't see a lot of improvement tbh. He's still at risk of being 'clumsy'But yes, accidents and the like being punished the same as grub acts doesn't have the correct balance. You can stop yourself throwing a roundhouse easier than getting out the way of an unintended head clash.
But that is why the 20minute RC was suggested. It was England (and other NH teams) that shot that down.As we know from history though, when England get shafted due to Laws the Laws (or interpretations) change quickly.
Really?
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@victor-meldrew said in 6N England v Ireland:
@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
The thing for me which needs to be fixed is the penalty for clumsy play is the same as for malicious, dirty stuff.
Punish careless, clumsy play for safety's sake by all means, but there has to be a different in-match penalty from the dirty, malicious stuff like kicking a blokes head.
But if a transgression whether deliberate or clumsy results in the innocent player leaving the field due to injury then that should be straight red.
Thatâll take care of the targeting
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@catogrande said in 6N England v Ireland:
@crucial said in 6N England v Ireland:
@victor-meldrew said in 6N England v Ireland:
@pakman said in 6N England v Ireland:
I'd say clumsy on both parts.
The thing for me which needs to be fixed is the penalty for clumsy play is the same as for malicious, dirty stuff.
Punish careless, clumsy play for safety's sake by all means, but there has to be a different in-match penalty from the dirty, malicious stuff like kicking a blokes head.
The theory is to get better technique coached into players. To an extent that has worked but you could also have a strong argument that it hasn't.
Take someone like Ofa (please). Was a shocker at not lowering or driving up if he did. I don't see a lot of improvement tbh. He's still at risk of being 'clumsy'But yes, accidents and the like being punished the same as grub acts doesn't have the correct balance. You can stop yourself throwing a roundhouse easier than getting out the way of an unintended head clash.
But that is why the 20minute RC was suggested. It was England (and other NH teams) that shot that down.As we know from history though, when England get shafted due to Laws the Laws (or interpretations) change quickly.
Really?
Yup
England were foxed and frustrated by Italy's creative use of a legal loophole | Andy Bull
Italyâs plan of avoiding rucks by not committing to the breakdown after tackles frustrated England and annoyed their coach Eddie Jones
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Thatâs really only an article telling us that England were rubbish at working out how to counter a tactic and that Jones didnât like it. Youâll need a bit more than that to shore up the conspiracy theory đ
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@catogrande said in 6N England v Ireland:
Thatâs really only an article telling us that England were rubbish at working out how to counter a tactic and that Jones didnât like it. Youâll need a bit more than that to shore up the conspiracy theory đ
The rule that allowed it, that the ABs had used for years to be able to get closer to the attack, was changed within months.
Ruck-less law change was an 'over-reaction' says Italy coach Conor O'Shea
Conor OâShea has criticised World Rugby for an âover-reactionâ to his teamâs infamous ruck-less tactics against England a year ago, [âŚ]
