All Blacks 2022
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
So when discussing players there is little expectation or demand for change from what I can see.
Does that mean we except who we have?
Question to ask then is whether things really are the fault of the coaches or is it the cattle they are working with?
Think about it, we often see coaches obviously frustrated that the players aren't doing what they want or aren't executing under pressure.
I totally agree that overcoming those aspects is part of coaching but there must also be times where the coaching staff feel they have set the team up for a win only for a dumb penalty or a dropped ball by a player has derailed the mission.Or maybe you don't play a game plan that relies on ball-playing and ball-carrying by props who are first, foremost and exclusively scrummagers who can't run and pass...?
That's to say, it's clearly a cattle and coaching issue - we just don't have the players to play the game plan that the coaches clearly want to play. One would have thought that, after spending many years (in most case) trying to upskill players to play that way, but without success, the coaches may have thought of changing the game plan.
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@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 Yeah, I understand but the fact of the matter is, and with no slight on the opposition, the ABs played poorly.
They played exactly as well as the opposition let them play. Ireland didn't seem to play that well against French in 6Ns, that was because the French didn't let them. It is the way in our game often I think. I have seen good teams play ABs over the years and look poor, just because ABs have made them look that way. Same with a lot of teams, when they get beaten up in frowards they will struggle to look good. And so I give credit to the team that plays that well. I understand that we not used to seeing the ABs beaten, but it has unfortunately been a trait of a lot of our supporters the first thing we do in a loss we attck the ABs , and don't give credit to other team. It is not just AB supporters, a good number of supporters do it, just this is something that Kieran Crowley pointed out.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 Yeah, I understand but the fact of the matter is, and with no slight on the opposition, the ABs played poorly.
They played exactly as well as the opposition let them play. Ireland didn't seem to play that well against French in 6Ns, that was because the French didn't let them. It is the way in our game often I think. I have seen good teams play ABs over the years and look poor, just because ABs have made them look that way. Same with a lot of teams, when they get beaten up in frowards they will struggle to look good. And so I give credit to the team that plays that well. I understand that we not used to seeing the ABs beaten, but it has unfortunately been a trait of a lot of our supporters the first thing we do in a loss we attck the ABs , and don't give credit to other team. It is not just AB supporters, a good number of supporters do it, just this is something that Kieran Crowley pointed out.
That's a part of it, but the main reason we got done was because our forwards performed poorly.
Good teams over the years have looked poor against the ABs at times because of the fast paced game we played, due to our brilliant backs & athletic forwards that had the pace to link up with our backs to keep the momentum going... the forwards played a big part in that by playing with real aggression & cleaning out well at the breakdown.
The breakdown area is vital, it's by far the most contested part of the game, yet we consistently do a poor job there.Crowley said the ABs wouldn't be in the top 2 or 3 favourites for the RWC, that is probably a fair comment going by the way we played last season... but for him to say NZ supporters are arrogant is a ludicrous comment, ABs have a better win/loss record than any other team & have set the benchmark for yonks, so of course NZ supporters expect them to play to a very high standard in all test matches.
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IMO the ABs success over the past two decades has been built on
Defense, don't concede more than 20 points
Counter-attack. Ruthlessly exploit turnover and bad kicking to score the 23 points needed to win.We're not a multi-phase structure sort of side, other than to pull teams ragged to open those counter-attack opportunities (why we used to win so many games late). We don't bash teams in to submission. At our best we were very pragmatic with our field position, doing fuck all in our half (except on turnover).
What helped us was the inherent quality of our backs, and the fact that all our forwards have ball skills so movements don't die with them. Our level of support play was also second to none, guys would be queuing up to score.
Which is why the keys to beating us have been the same for ages. Don't turn the ball over. Don't kick aimlessly.
Where i think we have fallen down is, we are still trying to play this game. But, we are generating far fewer turnovers and our slightly passive linespeed means there are less shit kicks delivered to our back 3.
Why are we getting less turnovers? Other teams are winning collisions, making turnovers very hard, and we don't have breakdown guys of the quality we used to have.
Our overall skills are down meaning we shell maybe one or two more opportunities than we used to.
And our defence has gone from our greatest strength to i think our biggest weakness. Could you see the current side trapping South Africa in their 22 and just keeping them there to win a RWC semi?
And there is your difference.So where is plan B?
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@nzbloke said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2022:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks 2022:
@dan54 Yeah, I understand but the fact of the matter is, and with no slight on the opposition, the ABs played poorly.
They played exactly as well as the opposition let them play. Ireland didn't seem to play that well against French in 6Ns, that was because the French didn't let them. It is the way in our game often I think. I have seen good teams play ABs over the years and look poor, just because ABs have made them look that way. Same with a lot of teams, when they get beaten up in frowards they will struggle to look good. And so I give credit to the team that plays that well. I understand that we not used to seeing the ABs beaten, but it has unfortunately been a trait of a lot of our supporters the first thing we do in a loss we attck the ABs , and don't give credit to other team. It is not just AB supporters, a good number of supporters do it, just this is something that Kieran Crowley pointed out.
That's a part of it, but the main reason we got done was because our forwards performed poorly.
Good teams over the years have looked poor against the ABs at times because of the fast paced game we played, due to our brilliant backs & athletic forwards that had the pace to link up with our backs to keep the momentum going... the forwards played a big part in that by playing with real aggression & cleaning out well at the breakdown.
The breakdown area is vital, it's by far the most contested part of the game, yet we consistently do a poor job there.Crowley said the ABs wouldn't be in the top 2 or 3 favourites for the RWC, that is probably a fair comment going by the way we played last season... but for him to say NZ supporters are arrogant is a ludicrous comment, ABs have a better win/loss record than any other team & have set the benchmark for yonks, so of course NZ supporters expect them to play to a very high standard in all test matches.
Yep I agree with what you say about AB supporters because of their success, but if you listened he actually said a lot couldn't name more than 3-4 of French/Irish team etc. I can kind of understand where he coming from, a hell of a lot of so called AB supporters are winners supporters and don't actually really watch a lot of the game, so think that everyone else should always be weaker than us. He's not talking about the proper rugby men so much, but by geez we have some so called AB supporters that know bugger all about game. I noticed it when I was living in Aus more than any other time, you talk to a kiwi in his AB jersey etc, and ask about a test match that had taken place not involving the ABs, and often had no idea of what had happened etc.. We get a lot of them on internet forums that learn all their rugby from reading forums and seeing the odd game on tv, but have no real idea of the game.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
IMO the ABs success over the past two decades has been built on
Defense, don't concede more than 20 points
Counter-attack. Ruthlessly exploit turnover and bad kicking to score the 23 points needed to win.We're not a multi-phase structure sort of side, other than to pull teams ragged to open those counter-attack opportunities (why we used to win so many games late). We don't bash teams in to submission. At our best we were very pragmatic with our field position, doing fuck all in our half (except on turnover).
What helped us was the inherent quality of our backs, and the fact that all our forwards have ball skills so movements don't die with them. Our level of support play was also second to none, guys would be queuing up to score.
Which is why the keys to beating us have been the same for ages. Don't turn the ball over. Don't kick aimlessly.
Where i think we have fallen down is, we are still trying to play this game. But, we are generating far fewer turnovers and our slightly passive linespeed means there are less shit kicks delivered to our back 3.
Why are we getting less turnovers? Other teams are winning collisions, making turnovers very hard, and we don't have breakdown guys of the quality we used to have.
Our overall skills are down meaning we shell maybe one or two more opportunities than we used to.
And our defence has gone from our greatest strength to i think our biggest weakness. Could you see the current side trapping South Africa in their 22 and just keeping them there to win a RWC semi?
And there is your difference.So where is plan B?
great post
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Plus the fact we had had more world 15 class players than any other team, and a few once in a generation players. Like it or lump it, we don't actually have that many real top class players at moment, they tend to come in cycles. We haven't had a world beating u20 team for a few years now, and thats where a lot of our talent comes through.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
IMO the ABs success over the past two decades has been built on
Defense, don't concede more than 20 points
Counter-attack. Ruthlessly exploit turnover and bad kicking to score the 23 points needed to win.We're not a multi-phase structure sort of side, other than to pull teams ragged to open those counter-attack opportunities (why we used to win so many games late). We don't bash teams in to submission. At our best we were very pragmatic with our field position, doing fuck all in our half (except on turnover).
What helped us was the inherent quality of our backs, and the fact that all our forwards have ball skills so movements don't die with them. Our level of support play was also second to none, guys would be queuing up to score.
Which is why the keys to beating us have been the same for ages. Don't turn the ball over. Don't kick aimlessly.
Where i think we have fallen down is, we are still trying to play this game. But, we are generating far fewer turnovers and our slightly passive linespeed means there are less shit kicks delivered to our back 3.
Why are we getting less turnovers? Other teams are winning collisions, making turnovers very hard, and we don't have breakdown guys of the quality we used to have.
Our overall skills are down meaning we shell maybe one or two more opportunities than we used to.
And our defence has gone from our greatest strength to i think our biggest weakness. Could you see the current side trapping South Africa in their 22 and just keeping them there to win a RWC semi?
And there is your difference.So where is plan B?
Doesn't need to be a big plan B just adjustments to what you outline there. I think the coaches are trying things but haven't nailed either the right plan or the right people so then they search for the person only to find it was the plan that was wrong all along.
The defence is probably an example. To the outside it seems we are trying to deliberately suck runners forward rather than meet them before the advantage line. Trying to create those turnover opportunities that have dried up as other teams have got better. It hasn't worked so we need to change again.
I like what Ireland do against rush D. They take a sevens approach and stay deep then identify if/when the defence has got out of line. The opposition realise that they can't rush without creating gaps and get flat footed, creating opportunities to sit them on their heels. -
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
IMO the ABs success over the past two decades has been built on
Defense, don't concede more than 20 points
Counter-attack. Ruthlessly exploit turnover and bad kicking to score the 23 points needed to win.We're not a multi-phase structure sort of side, other than to pull teams ragged to open those counter-attack opportunities (why we used to win so many games late). We don't bash teams in to submission. At our best we were very pragmatic with our field position, doing fuck all in our half (except on turnover).
What helped us was the inherent quality of our backs, and the fact that all our forwards have ball skills so movements don't die with them. Our level of support play was also second to none, guys would be queuing up to score.
Which is why the keys to beating us have been the same for ages. Don't turn the ball over. Don't kick aimlessly.
Where i think we have fallen down is, we are still trying to play this game. But, we are generating far fewer turnovers and our slightly passive linespeed means there are less shit kicks delivered to our back 3.
Why are we getting less turnovers? Other teams are winning collisions, making turnovers very hard, and we don't have breakdown guys of the quality we used to have.
Our overall skills are down meaning we shell maybe one or two more opportunities than we used to.
And our defence has gone from our greatest strength to i think our biggest weakness. Could you see the current side trapping South Africa in their 22 and just keeping them there to win a RWC semi?
And there is your difference.So where is plan B?
Doesn't need to be a big plan B just adjustments to what you outline there. I think the coaches are trying things but haven't nailed either the right plan or the right people so then they search for the person only to find it was the plan that was wrong all along.
The defence is probably an example. To the outside it seems we are trying to deliberately suck runners forward rather than meet them before the advantage line. Trying to create those turnover opportunities that have dried up as other teams have got better. It hasn't worked so we need to change again.
I like what Ireland do against rush D. They take a sevens approach and stay deep then identify if/when the defence has got out of line. The opposition realise that they can't rush without creating gaps and get flat footed, creating opportunities to sit them on their heels.So are we trying to pick players for The AB coaches plan.
Or are they Picking players and trying to form a plan around the players ?.
The latter it seems, maybe Pick players who can implement the coaching staffs plan is where they need to go. -
@chris said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
IMO the ABs success over the past two decades has been built on
Defense, don't concede more than 20 points
Counter-attack. Ruthlessly exploit turnover and bad kicking to score the 23 points needed to win.We're not a multi-phase structure sort of side, other than to pull teams ragged to open those counter-attack opportunities (why we used to win so many games late). We don't bash teams in to submission. At our best we were very pragmatic with our field position, doing fuck all in our half (except on turnover).
What helped us was the inherent quality of our backs, and the fact that all our forwards have ball skills so movements don't die with them. Our level of support play was also second to none, guys would be queuing up to score.
Which is why the keys to beating us have been the same for ages. Don't turn the ball over. Don't kick aimlessly.
Where i think we have fallen down is, we are still trying to play this game. But, we are generating far fewer turnovers and our slightly passive linespeed means there are less shit kicks delivered to our back 3.
Why are we getting less turnovers? Other teams are winning collisions, making turnovers very hard, and we don't have breakdown guys of the quality we used to have.
Our overall skills are down meaning we shell maybe one or two more opportunities than we used to.
And our defence has gone from our greatest strength to i think our biggest weakness. Could you see the current side trapping South Africa in their 22 and just keeping them there to win a RWC semi?
And there is your difference.So where is plan B?
Doesn't need to be a big plan B just adjustments to what you outline there. I think the coaches are trying things but haven't nailed either the right plan or the right people so then they search for the person only to find it was the plan that was wrong all along.
The defence is probably an example. To the outside it seems we are trying to deliberately suck runners forward rather than meet them before the advantage line. Trying to create those turnover opportunities that have dried up as other teams have got better. It hasn't worked so we need to change again.
I like what Ireland do against rush D. They take a sevens approach and stay deep then identify if/when the defence has got out of line. The opposition realise that they can't rush without creating gaps and get flat footed, creating opportunities to sit them on their heels.So are we trying to pick players for The AB coaches plan.
Or are they Picking players and trying to form a plan around the players ?.
The latter it seems, maybe Pick players who can implement the coaching staffs plan is where they need to go.I don't think it is as simple as that. eg you can pick a plan and think that the players you have selected will be able to execute it but if it doesn't pan out you may try someone else in a key role or you might adjust the plan.
There is still a big element of picking the best players but IMO the tweaking and experimenting comes around the loose forwards and the back three.
I'll fan the fire and use Akira as an example. They made a plan around him to get go forward ball close in but it didn't really work. Then you have to wonder 'are you using him well or he not the right guy' -
Meanwhile some interesting comments in this..
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@chris said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
IMO the ABs success over the past two decades has been built on
Defense, don't concede more than 20 points
Counter-attack. Ruthlessly exploit turnover and bad kicking to score the 23 points needed to win.We're not a multi-phase structure sort of side, other than to pull teams ragged to open those counter-attack opportunities (why we used to win so many games late). We don't bash teams in to submission. At our best we were very pragmatic with our field position, doing fuck all in our half (except on turnover).
What helped us was the inherent quality of our backs, and the fact that all our forwards have ball skills so movements don't die with them. Our level of support play was also second to none, guys would be queuing up to score.
Which is why the keys to beating us have been the same for ages. Don't turn the ball over. Don't kick aimlessly.
Where i think we have fallen down is, we are still trying to play this game. But, we are generating far fewer turnovers and our slightly passive linespeed means there are less shit kicks delivered to our back 3.
Why are we getting less turnovers? Other teams are winning collisions, making turnovers very hard, and we don't have breakdown guys of the quality we used to have.
Our overall skills are down meaning we shell maybe one or two more opportunities than we used to.
And our defence has gone from our greatest strength to i think our biggest weakness. Could you see the current side trapping South Africa in their 22 and just keeping them there to win a RWC semi?
And there is your difference.So where is plan B?
Doesn't need to be a big plan B just adjustments to what you outline there. I think the coaches are trying things but haven't nailed either the right plan or the right people so then they search for the person only to find it was the plan that was wrong all along.
The defence is probably an example. To the outside it seems we are trying to deliberately suck runners forward rather than meet them before the advantage line. Trying to create those turnover opportunities that have dried up as other teams have got better. It hasn't worked so we need to change again.
I like what Ireland do against rush D. They take a sevens approach and stay deep then identify if/when the defence has got out of line. The opposition realise that they can't rush without creating gaps and get flat footed, creating opportunities to sit them on their heels.So are we trying to pick players for The AB coaches plan.
Or are they Picking players and trying to form a plan around the players ?.
The latter it seems, maybe Pick players who can implement the coaching staffs plan is where they need to go.I don't think it is as simple as that. eg you can pick a plan and think that the players you have selected will be able to execute it but if it doesn't pan out you may try someone else in a key role or you might adjust the plan.
There is still a big element of picking the best players but IMO the tweaking and experimenting comes around the loose forwards and the back three.
I'll fan the fire and use Akira as an example. They made a plan around him to get go forward ball close in but it didn't really work. Then you have to wonder 'are you using him well or he not the right guy'I agree I think it is more complicated,but some of picking player to plans or not is in the mix somewhere.
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@chris said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@chris said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2022:
IMO the ABs success over the past two decades has been built on
Defense, don't concede more than 20 points
Counter-attack. Ruthlessly exploit turnover and bad kicking to score the 23 points needed to win.We're not a multi-phase structure sort of side, other than to pull teams ragged to open those counter-attack opportunities (why we used to win so many games late). We don't bash teams in to submission. At our best we were very pragmatic with our field position, doing fuck all in our half (except on turnover).
What helped us was the inherent quality of our backs, and the fact that all our forwards have ball skills so movements don't die with them. Our level of support play was also second to none, guys would be queuing up to score.
Which is why the keys to beating us have been the same for ages. Don't turn the ball over. Don't kick aimlessly.
Where i think we have fallen down is, we are still trying to play this game. But, we are generating far fewer turnovers and our slightly passive linespeed means there are less shit kicks delivered to our back 3.
Why are we getting less turnovers? Other teams are winning collisions, making turnovers very hard, and we don't have breakdown guys of the quality we used to have.
Our overall skills are down meaning we shell maybe one or two more opportunities than we used to.
And our defence has gone from our greatest strength to i think our biggest weakness. Could you see the current side trapping South Africa in their 22 and just keeping them there to win a RWC semi?
And there is your difference.So where is plan B?
Doesn't need to be a big plan B just adjustments to what you outline there. I think the coaches are trying things but haven't nailed either the right plan or the right people so then they search for the person only to find it was the plan that was wrong all along.
The defence is probably an example. To the outside it seems we are trying to deliberately suck runners forward rather than meet them before the advantage line. Trying to create those turnover opportunities that have dried up as other teams have got better. It hasn't worked so we need to change again.
I like what Ireland do against rush D. They take a sevens approach and stay deep then identify if/when the defence has got out of line. The opposition realise that they can't rush without creating gaps and get flat footed, creating opportunities to sit them on their heels.So are we trying to pick players for The AB coaches plan.
Or are they Picking players and trying to form a plan around the players ?.
The latter it seems, maybe Pick players who can implement the coaching staffs plan is where they need to go.I don't think it is as simple as that. eg you can pick a plan and think that the players you have selected will be able to execute it but if it doesn't pan out you may try someone else in a key role or you might adjust the plan.
There is still a big element of picking the best players but IMO the tweaking and experimenting comes around the loose forwards and the back three.
I'll fan the fire and use Akira as an example. They made a plan around him to get go forward ball close in but it didn't really work. Then you have to wonder 'are you using him well or he not the right guy'I agree I think it is more complicated,but some of picking player to plans or not is in the mix somewhere.
The plan has to come first then you train players to work the plan. Hopefully you hve selected them based on ability/skillset to do so.
Worst thing to do is base your plan around the player(s).If you are dependent on certian players you can get in a world of trouble if there are injury or form problems.
It's a balance really and sometimes it takes a while to get right as you can only make small adjustments or you can't see the cause/effect. -
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This might not be the right place but
for the most part, they ARE selecting the right players in the squad. There are maybe 30 "elite" players in the country, those all make the squad give or take maybe one or two. We do not have a huge pool of players to call on. With 5 pro teams and zero overseas selection there is a limited number of players we have to play test rugby.
So it's pretty easy to pick the squad. And that's what we've got. So, just maybe, they are picking the plan that works best for the guys we have. A game plan built around 2 reactive instinctive run-first 10s who don't kick well from hand. A plan that doesn't need big ball running tighties. A plan that needs big guys in wide channels. Because that's what we've got.
A separate point.
Some of our (fans) current attitudes are probably warped by that 2005-2015 run, the Richie McCaw dynasty. Just before that we had almost all of our players available for selection, past prime, emerging, and prime. And we had great depth and a good team, that still lost big games (ie one Bledisloe a year, and RWC games). And test rugby then was way less even. England were good for a couple of years, the French good for a couple of performances a year. Australia bloody good. South Africa a mixed bag. Wales and Ireland were plucky underdogs. The Scots sucked then too.
We then had that period of dominance where we won everything on the back of a number of the countries greatest ever players playing at the same time. Depth wasn't overly tested (high profile exceptions obviously aye Beaver?) because guys just had to slot in and role play.
Now? Those greats have retired. Test rugby is way more even. We have a huge number of players overseas, some who left just when they could have helped our first team immensely. And we, as fans, have had to deal with that sudden change with no nice transition. That great team allowed us to ignore the changing landscape. -
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial Vaa'i at 6 means you need a certain type of no.8, i.e., not Savea.
I remain convinced that looking for a blindside to plug the holes in our loose forwards capability is part of the problem if your starting point is the 8 has to be Savea who should be a super sub.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial Vaa'i at 6 means you need a certain type of no.8, i.e., not Savea.
I remain convinced that looking for a blindside to plug the holes in our loose forwards capability is part of the problem if your starting point is the 8 has to be Savea who should be a super sub.
Except he is the best 8 in the country at the moment.
I know he seems more a SuperRugby 8 than a test one but who goes in ahead of him AND is a better player and leader.
That's the quandary.I also get that if he is at 8 we need a six that plays up and down the track more and stops fringe runners in their tracks.
Now tell me who that guy is.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial Vaa'i at 6 means you need a certain type of no.8, i.e., not Savea.
I remain convinced that looking for a blindside to plug the holes in our loose forwards capability is part of the problem if your starting point is the 8 has to be Savea who should be a super sub.
Except he is the best 8 in the country at the moment.
I know he seems more a SuperRugby 8 than a test one but who goes in ahead of him AND is a better player and leader.
That's the quandary.I also get that if he is at 8 we need a six that plays up and down the track more and stops fringe runners in their tracks.
Now tell me who that guy is.
We don’t have one as yet.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
is a better player
i guess for those of us who don't see AS as a walk up start, this is the point. What actually makes a better player?
Will AS win you turnovers on the ground or through the counter ruck? No
Will AS win you a turnover by stopping a ball runner behind the advantage line with a strong hit? No
Will AS turn slow ball in to fast ball through size and physicality? No
Will AS win you lineouts? NoSo if you are willing to forgo all of that for an admittedly dynamite open field runner and link player, then you essentially need to pick two flankers who do the above for you.
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@crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2022:
@bovidae said in All Blacks 2022:
@crucial Vaa'i at 6 means you need a certain type of no.8, i.e., not Savea.
I remain convinced that looking for a blindside to plug the holes in our loose forwards capability is part of the problem if your starting point is the 8 has to be Savea who should be a super sub.
Except he is the best 8 in the country at the moment.
I know he seems more a SuperRugby 8 than a test one but who goes in ahead of him AND is a better player and leader.
That's the quandary.All we need to do is identify a Test 8, or someone with the raw attributes to develop into one. That player doesn't have to be a George Smith, or McCaw.
I also get that if he is at 8 we need a six that plays up and down the track more and stops fringe runners in their tracks.
Now tell me who that guy is.
We're still looking for that player too. But it's no concidence our best rugby is with players like
6 - Jerome Kaino
8 - Kieran Read
