All Blacks 2022
-
@Victor-Meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
I disagree. You can argue that RTS's lack of experience at top level in the 15 man game makes QT look like a seasoned veteran.
RTS also has performed at the top level in the 13 man game. Defence was a huge part of that sport - so experience at the top level and performing under pressure is a track record.
Ultimately, it's a risk. And that's what the Coaches need to do - understand the capabilities, strengths, and weaknesses, and then make a decision. Which I'll then disagree with if it appears wrong, or enthusiastically support if it aligns with my world view
-
With ALB unavailable I would have thought it ideal time to play Jordie at 12 as he likely has highest ceiling there of the contenders. RTS is still more conjecture on what he might do so soon at 12. I don't get the push to force him in there when he seemed a safer bet as a wing or fullback. But he is in mix for squad just like Goodhue and Tupaea.
Happy to be proven wrong in the finals series if RTS dominates the midfield. -
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
-
Jordie is a fullback who can cover 12 if needed. I think it’ll take a huge injury toll before he’s even close to starting there in a black jersey.
No need to shift him, as mentioned there are plenty of good options available, who actually play there every week.
So can we give up on this myth that he’s the great redeemer in the midfield?
Also, does anyone remember what happens when the All Blacks shoehorn fullbacks into the midfield?
-
@Gunner said in All Blacks 2022:
Also, does anyone remember what happens when the All Blacks shoehorn fullbacks into midfielders?
@Chris-B (I think) is a guru in these parts and covered this a few weeks ago putting everybody at rest. The others went to 13, not 12, so the curse is nothing to worry about. Or something like that.
-
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
Sounds like a good idea. Let's replace one of the most exciting players NZ has produced in a while with a guy who shat the bed at 12 when the pressure came on.
Gotta keep Havili in the ABs somehow eh. -
@Frank said in All Blacks 2022:
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
If they'd move Jordie to 12, the best option would be moving Havili back to fullback. He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
Sounds like a good idea. Let's replace one of the most exciting players NZ has produced in a while with a guy who shat the bed at 12 when the pressure came on.
Gotta keep Havili in the ABs somehow eh.Good example of moving players around to solve a problem that doesn't exist.
Havili is OK at 12 in Super but isn't strong enough at test level there. Just because it suits the Saders doesn't mean it suits the ABsI have no doubt that Jordie would go OK at 12 in tests BUT we know that he is proven to be good at 15 and the only other established option at 15 (a 'spine' position) is his brother who should be at 10.
Why weaken a very important spot on the field to fill another spot that now has some good options knocking on the door. QT has improved heaps since last year, we have RTS demanding a shot (and the advantage of a combo with the players either side of him, and we have the fall back of another player better than Havili in Goodhue.
The Barretts don't get to call the shots, the good of the team does. As it is we have had Beauden virtually demand to play 10 which suited us at the time but I still don't see him as a game controller. -
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
He's better there than Jordan (and BB). The only reason Havili plays at 12 for the Crusaders is that Robertson wants to fit in all his All Blacks in their backline, but there's no question that Havili is better than Jordan in the 15 jersey. Keep Jordan on the wing.
You're living in the past, man. Two years ago you probably had a case, but not now.
-
Maybe the best way to describe my thoughts is net result.
Is the net result of moving Jordie more than him staying there (for the Ireland games)?
To me starting Jordie at 15 and moving him later in the game is the best option by far. You get to observe whether the re-ordered lineup works better but also get to have confidence at the start.
The starting 12 must be QT or RTS (maybe give both a chance) though. Thanks for the service DH.
-
So everyone who doesn't want DH in the ABs because - despite being excellent until the tests against South Africa, but struggling in the later games against stronger teams - I assume you all also want to drop Akira too, who did exactly the same thing? At least DH has the excuse of being new in the position; can't say the same of Akira.
Edited to add that I see DH mostly as a 23. Not too sure about the starting 12: maybe JG with RI at 13. QT is still quite raw and it's way too soon for RTS.
-
Yeah, way too soon for RTS. Take away the name and just look at the performances. Solid with some exciting skills but hardly knocking the door down. QT is going great guns, and Goodhue showed his class last week. DH is a perfect squad member because of his versatility.
-
@Stargazer said in All Blacks 2022:
So everyone who doesn't want DH in the ABs because - despite being excellent until the tests against South Africa, but struggling in the later games against stronger teams - I assume you all also want to drop Akira too, who did exactly the same thing? At least DH has the excuse of being new in the position; can't say the same of Akira.
Edited to add that I see DH mostly as a 23. Not too sure about the starting 12: maybe JG with RI at 13. QT is still quite raw and it's way too soon for RTS.
I see DH as a squad member for sure. Definitely against Ireland where we don't have much lead in time and pattern knowledge etc will be of value.
-
@Crucial said in All Blacks 2022:
Maybe the best way to describe my thoughts is net result.
Is the net result of moving Jordie more than him staying there (for the Ireland games)?
To me starting Jordie at 15 and moving him later in the game is the best option by far. You get to observe whether the re-ordered lineup works better but also get to have confidence at the start.
The starting 12 must be QT or RTS (maybe give both a chance) though. Thanks for the service DH.
I think Jack Goodhue has the inside running. He was the incumbent 12 before getting injured - though, I don't know whether Fozzie is still running Hansen's theory that you don't lose your place due to injury. However, given that none of the other options are hugely compelling right now, I'd be pretty surprised if Jack doesn't get the first go.
I think we will see exactly what you suggest with Jordie getting shifted to 12 - at some point during the season - especially if no-one else really nails 12. At various times, Fozzie also needs to give Jordan time at fullback if he's to be the back-up at RWC.
.
-
-
I think a 3/4 line of
13 Reiko , 14 Jordan , 15 Jordie , 11 Clarke / Reece
Has already got an abundance of pace and flair ,
I’m personally not sure you have to sacrifice a bit of safety under the high ball and kick returns , to add more pace and X factor .
Just think the balance looks pretty right to me but maybe I’m a bit conservative
-
@Bovidae He's had a couple of games at 12 - Razor's switching him back and forth depending on Ennor or Havili.
I wish ALB hadn't got injured, so that Fozzie had to settle on who are his 2nd fives and who are his centres. I can easily foresee Jack playing in both positions for the ABs this year.
We'll quite likely go into the first test vs Ireland with all of Goodhue, Reece, Jordan and Jordie having played their previous game in a different position!
-
This is a really great discussion about the makeup of the backline, all of which is completely redundant if Ireland smack our forwards around again, but interesting nonetheless.
I agree with @Chris-B in that Jack likely has the inside running given his experience and being the incumbent before injury, which I'm OK with - I think he and Rieko could really work well.
I'll admit to being a bit over excited about RTS, I just really like what I'm seeing from him. We know he has both the natural talent and the big game temperament already, and I like that he isn't trying to do too much or overplay his hand while learning the position. He looks like he's just focusing on doing the basics well and the more comfortable he gets, the more we are going to see his natural attacking ability come to the fore. I think by the time the RWC comes around he'll have a pretty firm grip on that 12 jersey, and paired with Rieko that's gotta be one of the most exciting midfield combinations of all time.
