GOAT
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You'll figure out pretty quickly where this post is going.
I finished The Last Dance last night. Unequivocally one of the best series I have ever seen, brought back so many memories and it was great to get a real insight into what that team, and what Jordan specifically, was all about.
I have written multiple times over the years about my admiration for Steve Waugh on this forum, perhaps rivalling some of MN5's efforts in relaying the same thing over and over again. Waugh, for me, had a mental toughness & a desire to win that didn't allow any single thing to stand in his way. As we watched the AB's drop out of World Cups, in my view due to a lack of proper leadership, I longed for a Steve Waugh to captain us. WE finally got that with Richie, although he did have to grow into a bit.
The thing is about Waugh though, is that I don't think he would even be in my top 50 naturally talented cricketers. It was all about his mental game that pushed him to the levels he achieved. Another Aussie, Lleyton Hewitt, springs to mind here as well.
Can you imagine what either of these two would have achieved had they had serious talent. Like top 5 all time talent. That, for me, is Michael Jordan. When I was telling people I was finally watching this show the responses were close to unanimous. It's awesome, and he's a bit of an asshole. I agree with the former, but certainly not the latter. He just had that drive to win, that extra 5% up top which pushed him further, harder & above and beyond what others could do. He pushed people hard, he took on his opposition & he let nothing, absolutely nothing, get in way. He stepped up time after time after time. Took the game winning shots, missed the game winning shots and kept coming back.
I am in absolute awe of him. Steve Waugh application on top of Brian Lara talent.
He's the GOAT for me.
Nobody else is even close.
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Imo it's definitely M Jordan, with Tom Brady a distant second, and Kelly Slater third.
Jordan had a drive to win like no other, were he would push intill asshole stage. He also had talent like few others
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@Mackerzzzz said in GOAT:
Imo it's definitely M Jordan, with Tom Brady a distant second, and Kelly Slater third.
Jordan had a drive to win like no other, were he would push intill asshole stage. He also had talent like few others
I just don't think it makes him an asshole. Just incredibly driven.
The interviews certainly didn't suggest he was an asshole. Yeah, he seriously pushed people who weren't up to his standards etc but that should be expected if you asked me. He acknowledged he crossed the line a few times (but who doesn't) and those he pushed, and crossed the line with, seemed to have serious respect for him.
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@MajorRage said in GOAT:
@Mackerzzzz said in GOAT:
Imo it's definitely M Jordan, with Tom Brady a distant second, and Kelly Slater third.
Jordan had a drive to win like no other, were he would push intill asshole stage. He also had talent like few others
I just don't think it makes him an asshole. Just incredibly driven.
The interviews certainly didn't suggest he was an asshole. Yeah, he seriously pushed people who weren't up to his standards etc but that should be expected if you asked me. He acknowledged he crossed the line a few times (but who doesn't) and those he pushed, and crossed the line with, seemed to have serious respect for him.
Interesting that people can watch the same doco and reach a different conclusion - he fully came across as an asshole to me when I watched it.
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A GOAT has to be a person who changed their respective sport forever, so in regards to this, this is my list for some of the 'larger' sports
Rugby: J Lomu
American Football: T Brady
Soccer: Pele
Formula 1: A Senna
WRC: S Loeb
Moto GP: V Rossi
Basketball: M Jordan
Ice Hockey: W Gretzky
Surfing: Kelly Slater
Golf: T Woods
Boxing: M Ali
Fighting: C McGregor
Athletics: M Phelps
Baseball: B Ruth
Tennis: S Williams/ R Federer
Cycling: E Merckx -
@MajorRage agree with everything except
Steve still bats at 6 in my all time test XI.
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@mariner4life said in GOAT:
@MajorRage agree with everything except
Steve still bats at 6 in my all time test XI.
He's in my team for his captaincy for sure.
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@KiwiMurph said in GOAT:
Almost all of these GOATs are assholes.
It's part of what makes them great.
Some are just better at hiding it than others.
Agree with this , in that they're all assholes
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Only thing I'd add, is that some are better than others at using their asshole-ness for the benefit of the team -
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@MajorRage said in GOAT:
@mariner4life said in GOAT:
@MajorRage agree with everything except
Steve still bats at 6 in my all time test XI.
He's in my team for his captaincy for sure.
Picking an Aussie all time middle order is tough.
Bradman walks in but how do you narrow down Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh for 4-6 ? Two fucken legends miss out, THREE miss out if Miller or Gilchrist bat six.
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@KiwiMurph said in GOAT:
Almost all of these GOATs are assholes.
It's part of what makes them great.
Some are just better at hiding it than others.
True, Usain Bolt an exception though. Although almost certainly juiced to the gills.
Yes but also huge natural advantages too.
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@MajorRage said in GOAT:
@mariner4life said in GOAT:
@MajorRage agree with everything except
Steve still bats at 6 in my all time test XI.
He's in my team for his captaincy for sure.
Picking an Aussie all time middle order is tough.
Bradman walks in but how do you narrow down Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh for 4-6 ? Two fucken legends miss out, THREE miss out if Miller or Gilchrist bat six.
@MajorRage said in GOAT:
@mariner4life said in GOAT:
@MajorRage agree with everything except
Steve still bats at 6 in my all time test XI.
He's in my team for his captaincy for sure.
Picking an Aussie all time middle order is tough.
Bradman walks in but how do you narrow down Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh for 4-6 ? Two fucken legends miss out, THREE miss out if Miller or Gilchrist bat six.
Easy, the bloke who presided over cheating with sandpaper misses out.
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@MajorRage said in GOAT:
@Mackerzzzz said in GOAT:
Imo it's definitely M Jordan, with Tom Brady a distant second, and Kelly Slater third.
Jordan had a drive to win like no other, were he would push intill asshole stage. He also had talent like few others
I just don't think it makes him an asshole. Just incredibly driven.
The interviews certainly didn't suggest he was an asshole. Yeah, he seriously pushed people who weren't up to his standards etc but that should be expected if you asked me. He acknowledged he crossed the line a few times (but who doesn't) and those he pushed, and crossed the line with, seemed to have serious respect for him.
Interesting that people can watch the same doco and reach a different conclusion - he fully came across as an asshole to me when I watched it.
I find it an interesting issue about leadership how setting a standard and brooking no transgressions can come across as being an arsehole. That recognising others simply aren't putting in the same amount of effort that you believe they should be and willing to have that uncomfortable conversation in no uncertain terms can be confronting.
Arsehole behaviour to me would be seeking to make others less than they could otherwise be for your own benefit.
Generally speaking on Jordan's worthiness to be GOAT: For all that he had talent, his work ethic, self belief and desire is what made him. Plenty of people get by on talent, it's difficult to get all the attributes. So difficult we hardly see it.
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@MajorRage said in GOAT:
@mariner4life said in GOAT:
@MajorRage agree with everything except
Steve still bats at 6 in my all time test XI.
He's in my team for his captaincy for sure.
Picking an Aussie all time middle order is tough.
Bradman walks in but how do you narrow down Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh for 4-6 ? Two fucken legends miss out, THREE miss out if Miller or Gilchrist bat six.
@MajorRage said in GOAT:
@mariner4life said in GOAT:
@MajorRage agree with everything except
Steve still bats at 6 in my all time test XI.
He's in my team for his captaincy for sure.
Picking an Aussie all time middle order is tough.
Bradman walks in but how do you narrow down Ponting, Smith, G Chappell, Border and S Waugh for 4-6 ? Two fucken legends miss out, THREE miss out if Miller or Gilchrist bat six.
Easy, the bloke who presided over cheating with sandpaper misses out.
Yeah that might sway it.
It’s a straight clash with him Ponting and G Chappell for me given that one of S Waugh or Border gets the 5-6 spot ( I’m not sure I can pick both of them )
Ponting was exceptional for soooooooooooo long although the average dipped a bit in his later years. The old man tells me G Chappell was brilliant, can’t say I remember him though.
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MJ is the greatest basketballer I’ve seen. I watched Dr J, Magic and Bird as a kid. Seen Hakeen, Shaq and Kobe. Watched Lebron since he was a high school kid and now seeing Luka absolute torch it up. But MJ is still the man as a complete package offensively, defensively and competitively.
Some of my favourite basketball is prior to the Bulls first three-peat and the Knicks EC semis and the Pistons CF series where MJ carried ordinary Bulls teams. Pistons were loaded and beat them in 88 and 89 in the ECFs but some of the ball MJ played on both ends was awesome.
He just got better and better and so did his team mates and the rest is history.
