All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@bayimports I unfortunately read it
Terrible article. And frankly damning of the guy it's supposed to support.
Absolutely packed with bullshit though.
Something is going on with RM though. He looks a shadow of his Crusader self when he's with the ABs. Maybe he hasn't got the top two inches for test rugby, or maybe there is something about the role he is expected to play for the ABs? Or maybe it's something else altogether. Who knows.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@bayimports I unfortunately read it
Terrible article. And frankly damning of the guy it's supposed to support.
Absolutely packed with bullshit though.
Something is going on with RM though. He looks a shadow of his Crusader self when he's with the ABs. Maybe he hasn't got the top two inches for test rugby, or maybe there is something about the role he is expected to play for the ABs? Or maybe it's something else altogether. Who knows.
Replace RM with the initials of probably at least half a dozen players.
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@Bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@bayimports I unfortunately read it
Terrible article. And frankly damning of the guy it's supposed to support.
Absolutely packed with bullshit though.
Something is going on with RM though. He looks a shadow of his Crusader self when he's with the ABs. Maybe he hasn't got the top two inches for test rugby, or maybe there is something about the role he is expected to play for the ABs? Or maybe it's something else altogether. Who knows.
Replace RM with the initials of probably at least half a dozen players.
Yeah I was thinking something similar as I typed.
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@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
Something is going on with RM though. He looks a shadow of his Crusader self when he's with the ABs. Maybe he hasn't got the top two inches for test rugby, or maybe there is something about the role he is expected to play for the ABs? Or maybe it's something else altogether. Who knows.
He has a game that is ideal for the lower level
He doesn't spend as much time at first receiver as traditional tens. At SR level other people (mostly Havili) take over this role and RM drifts slightly further behind the other backs looking for mismatches. He's lethal when he spots a fatty out of position in the defensive line. He calls for the ball and exposes them better than anyone else at the moment
So what happens against better defences? Initially it was long periods with out touching the ball. I think that has been resolved but he just can't find the same space. His running game being nullified effects the confidence of everything else and his kicking from hand goes to shit.
He wasn't helped at the start of the year by the team playing very flat. He needs to run onto the ball. That's a problem that got fixed during the SA trip.. but again the defences are better. In the England match I think he beat 8 defenders? But in general the second or third defender would get him without a genuine break happening.. in SR rugby beating 8 defenders would probably result in 4-5 tries
I wonder hows the AB's would go if every other selection remained the same and we picked the best traditional 10? That would probably be Gatland? He wouldn't do anything spectacular, but would the other backs score more tries?
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@Duluth said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
Something is going on with RM though. He looks a shadow of his Crusader self when he's with the ABs. Maybe he hasn't got the top two inches for test rugby, or maybe there is something about the role he is expected to play for the ABs? Or maybe it's something else altogether. Who knows.
He has a game that is ideal for the lower level
He doesn't spend as much time at first receiver as traditional tens. At SR level other people (mostly Havili) take over this role and RM drifts slightly further behind the other backs looking for mismatches. He's lethal when he spots a fatty out of position in the defensive line. He calls for the ball and exposes them better than anyone else at the moment
So what happens against better defences? Initially it was long periods with out touching the ball. I think that has been resolved but he just can't find the same space. His running game being nullified effects the confidence of everything else and his kicking from hand goes to shit.
He wasn't helped at the start of the year by the team playing very flat. He needs to run onto the ball. That's a problem that got fixed during the SA trip.. but again the defences are better. In the England match I think he beat 8 defenders? But in general the second or third defender would get him without a genuine break happening.. in SR rugby beating 8 defenders would probably result in 4-5 tries
I wonder hows the AB's would go if every other selection remained the same and we picked the best traditional 10? That would probably be Gatland? He wouldn't do anything spectacular, but would the other backs score more tries?
The thought of Gatland gives me the chills while he has those silly mistakes in his game. But the way things are with RM and BB we are getting similar mistakes anyway I suppose.
Broken record time and probably a bit pointless, but I reckon NZ has missed a trick with Sullivan not getting a decent run at 10 for Auckland and the Blues. I would love to see him there just to find out if my instinct is right about him.
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And further to the RM and BB duel playmaker role I wonder if part of the problem is that they are both the same type of playmaker. They are both 'flair' players. I think about League and their best 6 and 7 combinations. They often seem to be made up of one 'flair' player and one 'steady' player.
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@Duluth said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
I wonder hows the AB's would go if every other selection remained the same and we picked the best traditional 10? That would probably be Gatland? He wouldn't do anything spectacular, but would the other backs score more tries?
I think it would work ,But you would need JB at 12 and another FB not BB.
It would rely on a dominant Forward pack for Gatland to kick us around the park and a FB with a decent boot to keep us in the oppositions half as much as possible.
No real running threat at 10 with Gatland to need JB at 12. -
@Bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@Crazy-Horse said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@bayimports I unfortunately read it
Terrible article. And frankly damning of the guy it's supposed to support.
Absolutely packed with bullshit though.
Something is going on with RM though. He looks a shadow of his Crusader self when he's with the ABs. Maybe he hasn't got the top two inches for test rugby, or maybe there is something about the role he is expected to play for the ABs? Or maybe it's something else altogether. Who knows.
Replace RM with the initials of probably at least half a dozen players.
Not the forwards (Codie still has some flaky lineout throws), Smith is ah.., 10s a shadow, midfield-no? (except I guess DH), FB is really also a 10, wings? Not sure. I'd say it is particularly the 10s..
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@nostrildamus if I can try and decipher that, I think you're saying you disagree.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@Mackerzzzz said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
So:
Squad depth:- De Groot, Bower, Ross, Hogman, Norris, Williams
- Taukeiaho, Taylor, Aumua, Coles, McAllister, Ekland
- Lomax, Newell, Tu'ungafasi, Taavao, Williams, Jager
- Retallick, Vaii, Lord, Walker-Leawere, Gallagher, Holland
- Whitelock, S Barrett, Vaii, Lord, Tuitupou, Dickson
- S Barrett, Blackadder, A Ioane, Mikaele-Tu, Vaii, Frizzell
- Papalii, Cane, Blackadder, Jacobson, Harmon, T Christie
- Savea, Sotutu, Grace, Mikaele-Tu, Sowakula, Jacobson
- Smith, Webber, F Christie, Fakatava, Ratima, ?? TTT?
- R Mo'unga, B Barrett, Mckenzie, Perofeta, Gatland, ?? J Ioane?
- Clarke, Reece, Fainga'anuku, Lam, Rayasi, Telea
- J Barrett, Tupea, Lenert-Brown, RTS, Nankivell, Havili
- R Ioane, Lenert-Brown, Goodhue, T Umaga-Jensen, B Sullivan, Ennor
- Jordan, Telea, Reece, Fainga'anuku, Lam, Nareki
- Jordan, J Barrett, B Barrett, Mckenzie, Perofeta, Z Sullivan
close man but there might be maybe 2 or 3 professional rugby players in NZ that you missed.
Joe Moody, probably first or second name on line 1!
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Overall, I reckon our depth for the coming World Cup is Ok.
If we get injuries - or, especially multiple injuries, in some positions we will be in deep trouble. But we've got cover in lots of places.
A concern is that our cover often relies on shifting our best player in one position to another - e.g. I think Jordie is our best 12 and 15.
Ideally, I think you need at least three players in each position - and two whom you're happy to start.
My assessment on that basis.
Loosehead - We're in good shape - de Groot or Moody can start. Bower or Tuúngafasi can come off the bench.
Hooker - Good shape - Sami or Codie can start - Coles, and at a pinch Aumua or even McAlister can come of the bench.
Tighthead - Hmmm - Lomax has been a revelation (lets hope it continues). Laulala, Newell and Tu'ungafasi are all a bit iffy - but, the latter two are probably OK on their day and Fletch should be better with another season.
Lock - Retallick, Whitelock and Barret are a good threesome - Vaaí and Lord still need development. I'm a bit concerned about what happens post World Cup.
Blindside - I'm a lot more positive than the average Ferner. I'm concerned that if Barrett is our 6 going forward he's also easily our best replacement lock. On the plus side, I reckon Frizell and Ioane are both better than the "Ioane-Wars" on here might lead you to believe. Watch Frizzell at the end of the England game again before you dispute this. Blackadder is good cover off the bench.
Openside - We'll likely be best served with Papalií, but Sam Cane will be sufficient and Blackadder again good bench cover or even starting at a pinch.
8 - Ardie is locked in here, but Sotutu is decent enough, Blackadder can cover from the bench - as can Akira, Shannon, Cullen Grace.
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Smith....and then a lot of guys who are OK but not as good. We don't want Aaron getting injured.
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Richie - and then quite a gap back to Beaudy and DMac. I'm quite a bit more positive about Richie than the Fern average.
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Caleb, Sevu, Big Leicester - not really a position of strength. On their day, all these guys can win or lose you a match. Rieko is our best left wing.
Midfield - Jordie, Rieko, ALB, Goodhue, Havili, Tupaea - we only need four of these guys. Strengths and weaknesses in each.
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Will "Team of the Year" Jordan (what did I tell y'all!) :), Telea, Reece. We're fine if we don't have to shift Will.
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Jordie, Beaudy, Will, DMac, Steve - if we're playing Jordie at 12 this one's a bit of a concern. Not least because of all the cover connotations.
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@Bones Havili is clearly a second five and Rieko is clearly a centre (as long as you don't ask Tana).
Tupaea is mainly a 2nd-five, though they've used him at centre. I don't really know where they would use ALB or Jack if everyone is available.
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@Bones An interesting point about Rieko - that I was going to make elsewhere - is that he's currently 25 and with a few work-ons.
Ma'a Nonu didn't even make the RWC in 2007 when he was 25, so even if this next one turns out not to be Rieko's World Cup there's a fair bit of promise for 2027 and 2031.
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@Bones An interesting point about Rieko - that I was going to make elsewhere - is that he's currently 25 and with a few work-ons.
Ma'a Nonu didn't even make the RWC in 2007 when he was 25, so even if this next one turns out not to be Rieko's World Cup there's a fair bit of promise for 2027 and 2031.
Yeah, it's a great point, but as in a couple of other threads....is he even going to stick around? It would suck if he ups and fucks off after next year without even getting into a really good groove.
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@Bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@nostrildamus if I can try and decipher that, I think you're saying you disagree.
Well done!
Only RM BB and DH are playing well below super level from what I have seen? Maybe Shannon? So I'd say 3 or 4 at most but perhaps you have more .. -
@Bones Certainly hope so - it would suck.
I'm a bit concerned about our first fives post-RWC as well. I'd be surprised if Beaudy sticks around, DMac has just taken a sabbatical and RM is making noises.
I don't really want to have to test the Bryn Gatland theory.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@Bones said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@nostrildamus if I can try and decipher that, I think you're saying you disagree.
Well done!
Only RM BB and DH are playing well below super level from what I have seen? Maybe Shannon? So I'd say 3 or 4 at most but perhaps you have more ..Akira. Christie. Clarke. Fainga'anuku.
Seemingly a few guys that come from the more successful super teams - perhaps that points to what works for coaches at super rugby, doesn't work in tests? Or the coaching is a step down once you step up...
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks depth 2022 & 2023:
@Bones Certainly hope so - it would suck.
I'm a bit concerned about our first fives post-RWC as well. I'd be surprised if Beaudy sticks around, DMac has just taken a sabbatical and RM is making noises.
I don't really want to have to test the Bryn Gatland theory.
Boom boom goes the drum.
Give us landers DH and we'll give you a test first five for the next RWC cycle.
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