Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022
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@kiwibloke I'm not missing your point, I simply think it's flawed.
Patel has no real chops as a spinner either - certainly not in NZ. Ravindra can bowl a holding pattern and has a FC batting average of 39. He is a like for like replacement for Santner only with more promise. Patel is an OK spinner when the conditions are helpful.
It wasn't the balance of the side that cost us the Test. It was the relative performances of each team, both individually, and collectively.
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke I'm not missing your point, I simply think it's flawed.
Patel has no real chops as a spinner either - certainly not in NZ. Ravindra can bowl a holding pattern and has a FC batting average of 39. He is a like for like replacement for Santner only with more promise. Patel is an OK spinner when the conditions are helpful.
It wasn't the balance of the side that cost us the Test. It was the relative performances of each team, both individually, and collectively.
Point is Patel is going to spin the ball more than Ravindra, also Patel is much older so is going to have better composure than him.
Not saying it was the balance of the team that cost us - we just weren't switched on... as you basically said, the only way your team is going to perform well as a unit is if each individual perform their roles well.
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@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
Usually our tail bats much better than that pile of rubbish we showed against the Banglas, other than a couple of players our team had a real shocker.
NZ have a lot less depth & money than Aussie & we don't play as many tests as Aussie, India or England... just shows what a superb effort it was by our blokes to win the WTC.Having a batting tail that's bat well is a top asset for any side... lot of that comes down to the each individual putting a ton of hard yakka in, practicing their batting over & over again.
And the coaching systems they are sitting in.
Having been in both coaching structure and still involved in one,it’s chalk and cheese at the moment on progressive thinking
And yes the money in the Australian coaching structure is much bigger.
But it still is stretched thin down the tiers.Sure our coaching systems need to be improved for the younger players coming through... vital to have the right batting & bowling coaches in place so the young fellas don't develop bad habits etc.
With Aussie only across the ditch from NZ really disappointed that we haven't played a lot more test matches against Aussie throughout the years - a team only improves when playing against a team better than your own, as you're put under much more pressure & learn heaps from it, so it's going to improve your game overall, but to get real benefit out of it you need to play against the top teams regularly, otherwise it doesn't help much at all.
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@hooroo said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Why oh why have they scheduled the start of a test match on a Sunday!!!
Very unusual.
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@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@hooroo said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Why oh why have they scheduled the start of a test match on a Sunday!!!
Very unusual.
Start of a test them back to work the next day ( while keeping an eye on the test )
I dont see any issues.
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I'm not sure what to make of the 'still learning to play at the Mount' lines that have popped up over the last couple of days. At the least, the Bangladeshi players and coaching staff were faster and more astute learners.
... "It's all to play for here at a ground that we know well. I still think we're learning how to play in the Mount," he said. "But we know what to expect a lot more here than we did in the Mount (Maunganui), I think. It's going to have bounce and carry the whole time. There's going to be a lot of grass on it. It's conditions that us batters are used to and I'm sure our bowlers are as well.
"So, if we win the toss, we're more often than not going to bowl and if you're batting first, you've got to scrap through. Sometimes our lower order has got us out of trouble. So just trying to scrap to 200 can be well above par. We'll just have to wait and see."
New Zealand have played eight Test matches at Hagley Oval. And they have lost only one of them. Mount Maunganui is a relatively newer ground which has hosted only three Test matches so far, and Ebadot Hossain, in particular, used it to throw up a challenge that, in Taylor's estimation, they weren't ready for.
"They were patient, they brought the stumps into play, they made us hit straight down the ground and a lot of our players probably haven't faced reverse swing for a majority of their careers," he said. "It's probably only been sporadic in the domestic circuit. And they bowled very well with it. Got it going both ways. But here, in Christchurch, the conditions will suit us a lot more than they probably did in the Mount." ...
Source: Ross Taylor: 'All good things have to come to an end' at ESPN CricInfo
The rest of that article is well worth a read too.
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@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
I'm not sure what to make of the 'still learning to play at the Mount' lines that have popped up over the last couple of days. At the least, the Bangladeshi players and coaching staff were faster and more astute learners.
... "It's all to play for here at a ground that we know well. I still think we're learning how to play in the Mount," he said. "But we know what to expect a lot more here than we did in the Mount (Maunganui), I think. It's going to have bounce and carry the whole time. There's going to be a lot of grass on it. It's conditions that us batters are used to and I'm sure our bowlers are as well.
"So, if we win the toss, we're more often than not going to bowl and if you're batting first, you've got to scrap through. Sometimes our lower order has got us out of trouble. So just trying to scrap to 200 can be well above par. We'll just have to wait and see."
New Zealand have played eight Test matches at Hagley Oval. And they have lost only one of them. Mount Maunganui is a relatively newer ground which has hosted only three Test matches so far, and Ebadot Hossain, in particular, used it to throw up a challenge that, in Taylor's estimation, they weren't ready for.
"They were patient, they brought the stumps into play, they made us hit straight down the ground and a lot of our players probably haven't faced reverse swing for a majority of their careers," he said. "It's probably only been sporadic in the domestic circuit. And they bowled very well with it. Got it going both ways. But here, in Christchurch, the conditions will suit us a lot more than they probably did in the Mount." ...
Source: Ross Taylor: 'All good things have to come to an end' at ESPN CricInfo
The rest of that article is well worth a read too.
Strange were not Bangladesh learning to play at the Mount which they did a lot better,Or has the Mount just come back from Dhaka were the Bangladesh team have been practicing on it.
Clutching at straws to explain a Limp performance I think.
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In my post match ramblings, my fried-from-the-Bay Oval-sun brain vaguely tried to make sense of the recent apparent change in Jamieson's bowling, and perhaps wider fortunes. His bowling average remains very impressive, but it looked like something was not quite right either
Sitting side-on on the evening of Day Three, on two to three occasions I thought there was some sort of (relative!) hesitancy/lack of fluency mid-action for Jamieson.
But as always with these things... I wondered if I was imagining it, or that 'thing' may have always been there when he was taking lots of wickets for not many. Cricket being one of those games where you can find almost anything if you start looking for it...
So it was interesting to read something well beyond my analytical skills from Chris Cairns behind the Herald paywall today: Chris Cairns column: The Black Caps issues that need addressing. The whole column is worth a read if you have access, but this particularly caught my eye:
... Trent Boult and Neil Wagner appeared their normal selves, but Tim Southee and Kyle Jamieson seemed off the mark.
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... In contrast, Jamieson is early into his test career and has been outstanding to date. A lack of wickets against Bangladesh – two for 90 - will be unfamiliar territory. I felt his timing was out at the point of delivery and this caused him to push the ball, especially to the left-handers. He also seemed to overstride in his run-up. That meant he did not hold his left side upright long enough in the delivery stride to maximise the tremendous height he possesses when powering over his front leg. This is a minor thing to tweak and his rhythm could quickly return at Hagley Oval. ...Hopefully a quick fix for Hagley Oval then!
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@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
In my post match ramblings, my fried-from-the-Bay Oval-sun brain vaguely tried to make sense of the recent apparent change in Jamieson's bowling, and perhaps wider fortunes. His bowling average remains very impressive, but it looked like something was not quite right either
Sitting side-on on the evening of Day Three, on two to three occasions I thought there was some sort of (relative!) hesitancy/lack of fluency mid-action for Jamieson.
But as always with these things... I wondered if I was imagining it, or that 'thing' may have always been there when he was taking lots of wickets for not many. Cricket being one of those games where you can find almost anything if you start looking for it...
So it was interesting to read something well beyond my analytical skills from Chris Cairns behind the Herald paywall today: Chris Cairns column: The Black Caps issues that need addressing. The whole column is worth a read if you have access, but this particularly caught my eye:
... Trent Boult and Neil Wagner appeared their normal selves, but Tim Southee and Kyle Jamieson seemed off the mark.
...
... In contrast, Jamieson is early into his test career and has been outstanding to date. A lack of wickets against Bangladesh – two for 90 - will be unfamiliar territory. I felt his timing was out at the point of delivery and this caused him to push the ball, especially to the left-handers. He also seemed to overstride in his run-up. That meant he did not hold his left side upright long enough in the delivery stride to maximise the tremendous height he possesses when powering over his front leg. This is a minor thing to tweak and his rhythm could quickly return at Hagley Oval. ...Hopefully a quick fix for Hagley Oval then!
How good is it seeing Cairnsy writing articles compared to how he was a few months back ?
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@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
In my post match ramblings, my fried-from-the-Bay Oval-sun brain vaguely tried to make sense of the recent apparent change in Jamieson's bowling, and perhaps wider fortunes. His bowling average remains very impressive, but it looked like something was not quite right either
Sitting side-on on the evening of Day Three, on two to three occasions I thought there was some sort of (relative!) hesitancy/lack of fluency mid-action for Jamieson.
But as always with these things... I wondered if I was imagining it, or that 'thing' may have always been there when he was taking lots of wickets for not many. Cricket being one of those games where you can find almost anything if you start looking for it...
So it was interesting to read something well beyond my analytical skills from Chris Cairns behind the Herald paywall today: Chris Cairns column: The Black Caps issues that need addressing. The whole column is worth a read if you have access, but this particularly caught my eye:
... Trent Boult and Neil Wagner appeared their normal selves, but Tim Southee and Kyle Jamieson seemed off the mark.
...
... In contrast, Jamieson is early into his test career and has been outstanding to date. A lack of wickets against Bangladesh – two for 90 - will be unfamiliar territory. I felt his timing was out at the point of delivery and this caused him to push the ball, especially to the left-handers. He also seemed to overstride in his run-up. That meant he did not hold his left side upright long enough in the delivery stride to maximise the tremendous height he possesses when powering over his front leg. This is a minor thing to tweak and his rhythm could quickly return at Hagley Oval. ...Hopefully a quick fix for Hagley Oval then!
How good is it seeing Cairnsy writing articles compared to how he was a few months back ?
I'm cautious of someone who's been allegedly involved with match fixing being given a platform like that.
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@nzzp said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
In my post match ramblings, my fried-from-the-Bay Oval-sun brain vaguely tried to make sense of the recent apparent change in Jamieson's bowling, and perhaps wider fortunes. His bowling average remains very impressive, but it looked like something was not quite right either
Sitting side-on on the evening of Day Three, on two to three occasions I thought there was some sort of (relative!) hesitancy/lack of fluency mid-action for Jamieson.
But as always with these things... I wondered if I was imagining it, or that 'thing' may have always been there when he was taking lots of wickets for not many. Cricket being one of those games where you can find almost anything if you start looking for it...
So it was interesting to read something well beyond my analytical skills from Chris Cairns behind the Herald paywall today: Chris Cairns column: The Black Caps issues that need addressing. The whole column is worth a read if you have access, but this particularly caught my eye:
... Trent Boult and Neil Wagner appeared their normal selves, but Tim Southee and Kyle Jamieson seemed off the mark.
...
... In contrast, Jamieson is early into his test career and has been outstanding to date. A lack of wickets against Bangladesh – two for 90 - will be unfamiliar territory. I felt his timing was out at the point of delivery and this caused him to push the ball, especially to the left-handers. He also seemed to overstride in his run-up. That meant he did not hold his left side upright long enough in the delivery stride to maximise the tremendous height he possesses when powering over his front leg. This is a minor thing to tweak and his rhythm could quickly return at Hagley Oval. ...Hopefully a quick fix for Hagley Oval then!
How good is it seeing Cairnsy writing articles compared to how he was a few months back ?
I'm cautious of someone who's been allegedly involved with match fixing being given a platform like that.
Doesn’t take away from the fact he was one of our best players and knows the game intimately, he was also near death only a few months away so I for one think it’s great he’s hopefully on the mend.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
In my post match ramblings, my fried-from-the-Bay Oval-sun brain vaguely tried to make sense of the recent apparent change in Jamieson's bowling, and perhaps wider fortunes. His bowling average remains very impressive, but it looked like something was not quite right either
Sitting side-on on the evening of Day Three, on two to three occasions I thought there was some sort of (relative!) hesitancy/lack of fluency mid-action for Jamieson.
But as always with these things... I wondered if I was imagining it, or that 'thing' may have always been there when he was taking lots of wickets for not many. Cricket being one of those games where you can find almost anything if you start looking for it...
So it was interesting to read something well beyond my analytical skills from Chris Cairns behind the Herald paywall today: Chris Cairns column: The Black Caps issues that need addressing. The whole column is worth a read if you have access, but this particularly caught my eye:
... Trent Boult and Neil Wagner appeared their normal selves, but Tim Southee and Kyle Jamieson seemed off the mark.
...
... In contrast, Jamieson is early into his test career and has been outstanding to date. A lack of wickets against Bangladesh – two for 90 - will be unfamiliar territory. I felt his timing was out at the point of delivery and this caused him to push the ball, especially to the left-handers. He also seemed to overstride in his run-up. That meant he did not hold his left side upright long enough in the delivery stride to maximise the tremendous height he possesses when powering over his front leg. This is a minor thing to tweak and his rhythm could quickly return at Hagley Oval. ...Hopefully a quick fix for Hagley Oval then!
How good is it seeing Cairnsy writing articles compared to how he was a few months back ?
I'm cautious of someone who's been allegedly involved with match fixing being given a platform like that.
Doesn’t take away from the fact he was one of our best players and knows the game intimately.
I know. But his involvement appears super duper dodgy.
I contrast this with cancel culture, and I guess it's a matter of degree. There are very few people I'm cautious of continuing in their professions. Tony Veitch is one, Cairns is another. But my list is pretty short.
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@nzzp said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
In my post match ramblings, my fried-from-the-Bay Oval-sun brain vaguely tried to make sense of the recent apparent change in Jamieson's bowling, and perhaps wider fortunes. His bowling average remains very impressive, but it looked like something was not quite right either
Sitting side-on on the evening of Day Three, on two to three occasions I thought there was some sort of (relative!) hesitancy/lack of fluency mid-action for Jamieson.
But as always with these things... I wondered if I was imagining it, or that 'thing' may have always been there when he was taking lots of wickets for not many. Cricket being one of those games where you can find almost anything if you start looking for it...
So it was interesting to read something well beyond my analytical skills from Chris Cairns behind the Herald paywall today: Chris Cairns column: The Black Caps issues that need addressing. The whole column is worth a read if you have access, but this particularly caught my eye:
... Trent Boult and Neil Wagner appeared their normal selves, but Tim Southee and Kyle Jamieson seemed off the mark.
...
... In contrast, Jamieson is early into his test career and has been outstanding to date. A lack of wickets against Bangladesh – two for 90 - will be unfamiliar territory. I felt his timing was out at the point of delivery and this caused him to push the ball, especially to the left-handers. He also seemed to overstride in his run-up. That meant he did not hold his left side upright long enough in the delivery stride to maximise the tremendous height he possesses when powering over his front leg. This is a minor thing to tweak and his rhythm could quickly return at Hagley Oval. ...Hopefully a quick fix for Hagley Oval then!
How good is it seeing Cairnsy writing articles compared to how he was a few months back ?
I'm cautious of someone who's been allegedly involved with match fixing being given a platform like that.
Doesn’t take away from the fact he was one of our best players and knows the game intimately.
I know. But his involvement appears super duper dodgy.
I contrast this with cancel culture, and I guess it's a matter of degree. There are very few people I'm cautious of continuing in their professions. Tony Veitch is one, Cairns is another. But my list is pretty short.
I think allegedly cheating in a game doesn’t quite compare with being an arsehole who beats a woman but there you go.
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@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Bad news for Bangladesh, the Herald is reporting that Mahmudul Hasan Joy is out injured and likely to be replaced by a bloke with a first class batting average of 16.
Only rumoured Black Caps change seems to be Mitchell for Ravindra, pitch depending.
I’m not paying attention to that. We got rolled by a bowler who averaged over 80 in the last test.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Bad news for Bangladesh, the Herald is reporting that Mahmudul Hasan Joy is out injured and likely to be replaced by a bloke with a first class batting average of 16.
Only rumoured Black Caps change seems to be Mitchell for Ravindra, pitch depending.
I’m not paying attention to that. We got rolled by a bowler who averaged over 80 in the last test.
Only in this case, we know that the incumbent was good from bitter experience
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Bangladesh win the toss and bowl.
Mitchell in for Ravindra. Which, on recent form, makes the middle order seem a bit stronger.
Acid is on the top six to make starts and build on them. And a much improved performance with the ball is needed from Southee and Jamieson.
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@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Bad news for Bangladesh, the Herald is reporting that Mahmudul Hasan Joy is out injured and likely to be replaced by a bloke with a first class batting average of 16.
Only rumoured Black Caps change seems to be Mitchell for Ravindra, pitch depending.
Ravindra doesn't add much with bat or ball - therefore the pitch doesn't really come into it... from the squad we have for this series against the Banglas reckon Mitchell should be replacing Ravindra in the 11.
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@nzzp said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@nzzp said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@donsteppa said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
In my post match ramblings, my fried-from-the-Bay Oval-sun brain vaguely tried to make sense of the recent apparent change in Jamieson's bowling, and perhaps wider fortunes. His bowling average remains very impressive, but it looked like something was not quite right either
Sitting side-on on the evening of Day Three, on two to three occasions I thought there was some sort of (relative!) hesitancy/lack of fluency mid-action for Jamieson.
But as always with these things... I wondered if I was imagining it, or that 'thing' may have always been there when he was taking lots of wickets for not many. Cricket being one of those games where you can find almost anything if you start looking for it...
So it was interesting to read something well beyond my analytical skills from Chris Cairns behind the Herald paywall today: Chris Cairns column: The Black Caps issues that need addressing. The whole column is worth a read if you have access, but this particularly caught my eye:
... Trent Boult and Neil Wagner appeared their normal selves, but Tim Southee and Kyle Jamieson seemed off the mark.
...
... In contrast, Jamieson is early into his test career and has been outstanding to date. A lack of wickets against Bangladesh – two for 90 - will be unfamiliar territory. I felt his timing was out at the point of delivery and this caused him to push the ball, especially to the left-handers. He also seemed to overstride in his run-up. That meant he did not hold his left side upright long enough in the delivery stride to maximise the tremendous height he possesses when powering over his front leg. This is a minor thing to tweak and his rhythm could quickly return at Hagley Oval. ...Hopefully a quick fix for Hagley Oval then!
How good is it seeing Cairnsy writing articles compared to how he was a few months back ?
I'm cautious of someone who's been allegedly involved with match fixing being given a platform like that.
Doesn’t take away from the fact he was one of our best players and knows the game intimately.
I know. But his involvement appears super duper dodgy.
I contrast this with cancel culture, and I guess it's a matter of degree. There are very few people I'm cautious of continuing in their professions. Tony Veitch is one, Cairns is another. But my list is pretty short.
Let's be clear. The involvement of Cairns isn't dodgy. Brendon McCullum testified under oath that Cairns approached him about match fixing. Either McCullum lied under oath or Cairns is a match fixer.
Cairns should have no place in cricket.
You should add Joseph Parker to your list. No idea how a drug dealer keeps getting so much positive publicity in the media.
