Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022
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@crazy-horse said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@canefan said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@crazy-horse said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris how exactly do you 'hit the pitch harder' without bowling short? It was always one of those phrases I never quite understood, especially when when an opener who has never tried bowling fast in his life is yelling it to me from the slips. It's a bit like 'bend your back son'.
The velocity of the ball at impact with the pitch?
Try yelling that at a fast bowler from the slips when he's already pissed off.
Making him madder? Isn't that the point?
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@crazy-horse said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Shorten your length to 8 metres instead of 6 m to hit too of off stump.
Bowl from your full height and not just roll your arm over to kiss the surface.
Hard to explain on a forum but easier to coach.Yep now I am a Grumpy Old Man I understand it, but as a Grumpy young man it would piss me off no end hearing 'hit the pitch harder!' A simple ' Hey Crazy you are dropping your front shoulder' would have helped more than the cliches we often got thrown our way.
It sounds like coaching has improved since my day. Back then it was almost non existent below first class level.
To go a bit further - it's about trajectories and speed.
If you watch the speed guns - bouncers often appear to be quite slow deliveries because the ball has to travel more distance to get to the batsman.
But, if you're a bowler who is getting tired, you can release the ball a bit earlier - parallel to the pitch and let gravity do its work - the ball will kiss the pitch (as Chris says) and you won't get any sort of steepling bounce, but the speed guns probably won't really register much that you've not bowled an effort ball.
Comparatively, you don't have to shorten your length by much to hit the pitch much harder, get quite a bit more bounce, but not get to the batsman much quicker if at all.
Wagner - hits the pitch hard!
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The Chris's have explained it well, it does mean you have to bend your back more but it is a really good tactic on dead, slower wickets. It's why Wags is effective regardless of the pitch as he's not afraid to bowl himself into the ground by hitting the deck hard if the pitch is not offering anything.
As @Chris has said already, it would have allowed us to exploit the variable bounce as some would sit up while others would keep lower and come onto the batsmen quicker.
I think they just expected the Bangladeshi batsmen to make mistakes if they bowled fuller regardless of the pitch. Latham and Stead should have been in the Bowlers ears demanding a lot more.
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@no-quarter said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
The Chris's have explained it well, it does mean you have to bend your back more but it is a really good tactic on dead, slower wickets. It's why Wags is effective regardless of the pitch as he's not afraid to bowl himself into the ground by hitting the deck hard if the pitch is not offering anything.
As @Chris has said already, it would have allowed us to exploit the variable bounce as some would sit up while others would keep lower and come onto the batsmen quicker.
I think they just expected the Bangladeshi batsmen to make mistakes if they bowled fuller regardless of the pitch. Latham and Stead should have been in the Bowlers ears demanding a lot more.
And it's not like they didn't have enough time to sit down and change their plan when it became clear it wasn't working
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@canefan said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@no-quarter said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
The Chris's have explained it well, it does mean you have to bend your back more but it is a really good tactic on dead, slower wickets. It's why Wags is effective regardless of the pitch as he's not afraid to bowl himself into the ground by hitting the deck hard if the pitch is not offering anything.
As @Chris has said already, it would have allowed us to exploit the variable bounce as some would sit up while others would keep lower and come onto the batsmen quicker.
I think they just expected the Bangladeshi batsmen to make mistakes if they bowled fuller regardless of the pitch. Latham and Stead should have been in the Bowlers ears demanding a lot more.
And it's not like they didn't have enough time to sit down and change their plan when it became clear it wasn't working
Only 170 overs, can't be expected to reassess your plan in that time
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@canefan said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@no-quarter said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
The Chris's have explained it well, it does mean you have to bend your back more but it is a really good tactic on dead, slower wickets. It's why Wags is effective regardless of the pitch as he's not afraid to bowl himself into the ground by hitting the deck hard if the pitch is not offering anything.
As @Chris has said already, it would have allowed us to exploit the variable bounce as some would sit up while others would keep lower and come onto the batsmen quicker.
I think they just expected the Bangladeshi batsmen to make mistakes if they bowled fuller regardless of the pitch. Latham and Stead should have been in the Bowlers ears demanding a lot more.
And it's not like they didn't have enough time to sit down and change their plan when it became clear it wasn't working
Exactly, so the problems were probably a bit deeper. There is a hell of a lot of experience in the Black Caps nowadays, you would expect them to make changes if things weren't working.
The past few years we have seen the Caps lose a session or a day, but they would normally bounce back and win a session or two of their own. For some reason it didn't happen in this game. I kept waiting, but no.
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Our attack works best when the ball is swinging. When it isn't the bounce of Wagner is the go to. Not much swing in the dry heat at Bay Oval. I thought they might consider swapping Ajaz for Ravindra and Mitchell for Jamieson or maybe Southee in next one. Just looked at Dane Cleaver first class record. Even better than Cam Fletcher. I sense Tom Blundell could need a spell at first class level to rebuild his confidence.
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
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@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
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@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
Our tail can bat despite what happened vs Bangladesh. It’s not like Cummins and Starc have had any pressure against England
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@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
I have often wondered how many NZ qualified youngsters are in the Aussie system. Do you know of any that NZ cricket could be courting? I would love us to snag a gem off them.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
Our tail can bat despite what happened vs Bangladesh. It’s not like Cummins and Starc have had any pressure against England
They haven't but they have in more tests than just those ones.
I am not saying the NZ tail can't bat just that it's a part of the game that should not be ignored underneath international level.
NZ do not coach the tail its up to the individual to work on it and find people to help.Australia have it in their coaching programs from u/13 up.
My point being as players come through the systems and graduate towards international Cricket its harder to teach the tail to bat in that enviroment, the work should have been done before that.
who are the quicks next in line behind the 4 that are playing now.
Henry,Ferguson,Sears,Duffy all not that great with the bat.
then under that I don't see many. -
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
Our tail can bat despite what happened vs Bangladesh. It’s not like Cummins and Starc have had any pressure against England
They haven't but they have in more tests than just those ones.
I am not saying the NZ tail can't bat just that it's a part of the game that should not be ignored underneath international level.
NZ do not coach the tail its up to the individual to work on it and find people to help.Australia have it in their coaching programs from u/13 up.
My point being as players come through the systems and graduate towards international Cricket its harder to teach the tail to bat in that enviroment, the work should have been done before that.
who are the quicks next in line behind the 4 that are playing now.
Henry,Ferguson,Sears,Duffy all not that great with the bat.
then under that I don't see many.Henry can bat, first class average just under 20, what more do you expect ?
In fact. Chris Martin aside, I can’t think of any recent NZer that can’t. At least the innocuous spinners we’ve had contributed with the willow on some occasions.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
Our tail can bat despite what happened vs Bangladesh. It’s not like Cummins and Starc have had any pressure against England
They haven't but they have in more tests than just those ones.
I am not saying the NZ tail can't bat just that it's a part of the game that should not be ignored underneath international level.
NZ do not coach the tail its up to the individual to work on it and find people to help.Australia have it in their coaching programs from u/13 up.
My point being as players come through the systems and graduate towards international Cricket its harder to teach the tail to bat in that enviroment, the work should have been done before that.
who are the quicks next in line behind the 4 that are playing now.
Henry,Ferguson,Sears,Duffy all not that great with the bat.
then under that I don't see many.Henry can bat, first class average just under 20, what more do you expect ?
In fact. Chris Martin aside, I can’t think of any recent NZer that can’t. At least the innocuous spinners we’ve had contributed with the willow on some occasions.
can bat versus apply themselves and not be reckless in a test match are two very different things, our tail appear to have very little regard for whatever format and just try and hit out currently, which is a shame. I do agree some of them have runs historically
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@bayimports said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
Our tail can bat despite what happened vs Bangladesh. It’s not like Cummins and Starc have had any pressure against England
They haven't but they have in more tests than just those ones.
I am not saying the NZ tail can't bat just that it's a part of the game that should not be ignored underneath international level.
NZ do not coach the tail its up to the individual to work on it and find people to help.Australia have it in their coaching programs from u/13 up.
My point being as players come through the systems and graduate towards international Cricket its harder to teach the tail to bat in that enviroment, the work should have been done before that.
who are the quicks next in line behind the 4 that are playing now.
Henry,Ferguson,Sears,Duffy all not that great with the bat.
then under that I don't see many.Henry can bat, first class average just under 20, what more do you expect ?
In fact. Chris Martin aside, I can’t think of any recent NZer that can’t. At least the innocuous spinners we’ve had contributed with the willow on some occasions.
can bat versus apply themselves and not be reckless in a test match are two very different things, our tail appear to have very little regard for whatever format and just try and hit out currently, which is a shame. I do agree some of them have runs historically
Fair call, but as I said it’s been easier for Oz of late.
In saying that our tail performed awfully this test just gone
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@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@mn5 said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
Our tail can bat despite what happened vs Bangladesh. It’s not like Cummins and Starc have had any pressure against England
They haven't but they have in more tests than just those ones.
I am not saying the NZ tail can't bat just that it's a part of the game that should not be ignored underneath international level.
NZ do not coach the tail its up to the individual to work on it and find people to help.Australia have it in their coaching programs from u/13 up.
My point being as players come through the systems and graduate towards international Cricket its harder to teach the tail to bat in that enviroment, the work should have been done before that.
who are the quicks next in line behind the 4 that are playing now.
Henry,Ferguson,Sears,Duffy all not that great with the bat.
then under that I don't see many.Henry can bat, first class average just under 20, what more do you expect ?
In fact. Chris Martin aside, I can’t think of any recent NZer that can’t. At least the innocuous spinners we’ve had contributed with the willow on some occasions.
I expect better than what is being dished up that's the problem NZ will fall behind if they do not get their coaching structures right.
Sit on your arse and every one runs past you Bangaldesh is an example they have improved a bit haven't they ?.Because they have followed good structures not the old ways that do not make you better,
You will see going forward what happens if things do not change and it will not be great watching .
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@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
Usually our tail bats much better than that pile of rubbish we showed against the Banglas, other than a couple of players our team had a real shocker.
NZ have a lot less depth & money than Aussie & we don't play as many tests as Aussie, India or England... just shows what a superb effort it was by our blokes to win the WTC.Having a batting tail that's bat well is a top asset for any side... lot of that comes down to the each individual putting a ton of hard yakka in, practicing their batting over & over again.
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@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@chris said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@dogmeat said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
@kiwibloke said in Black Caps v Bangladesh 2022:
Anyway, it was a no-brainer before the test 11 was selected that Patel should've played at 7 ahead of Ravindra
How many wickets has Patel taken in NZ?
Oh - that's right ZIP, ZERO, NADA, NONE.
No brainer
I guess it must be his batting that would have you picking him - after all he averages 6 in NZ (& 10 overall)
Take the Indian outlier away and despite playing the majority of his career in spin friendly countries he has 29 wickets @32.48. Very respectable for a Kiwi spinner but hardly a performance that demands inclusion in home conditions.
You're missing my point - which is Patel was always going to be a better spinning option than Ravindra, who hardly spins the ball, lets be honest either of them are not going to add that much to the tail batting wise anyway... but your best chance of winning a match is bowling the other side out twice, so the better your bowling options the more chances you have of winning a test.
As mentioned before the real responsibility for scoring most of the runs is on your top 6, if they bat poorly in both innings your team is basically stuffed anyway, making it pretty vital that you get a very good score in your first batting innings.Even though I prefer a specialist spinner to play to give your attack better balance, we can only select from the squad they picked against the Bangla's - don't rate Henry, Ravindra is a young bloke & doesn't offer much at this stage, so Mitchell has to slot in at 7 or maybe 6, he's a pretty handy pace bowler & has scored a couple of test hundreds.
One of Australia's strengths is their 8,9 down being able to score runs they get a lot out of Cummins and Starc with the bat even Lyons as he adds some value.
There is a massive emphasis put into coaching the tail to bat in Australia.
I work with some of the Qld state u/19 squads and part of my set coaching week is working with the tail to be able to bat.
It gives your side massive strength.The other thing I will say is the Systems for identifying talent and developing it is excellent.
The amount of 2m tall Quicks coming through the system is insane we have player's in the Qld u/19 squad that are tall and bowling mid 140's these players were identified at 12 and 13 and worked with using coaching nutrition,Gym sessions etc but a lot of work on elasticity to prevent injuries.
Usually our tail bats much better than that pile of rubbish we showed against the Banglas, other than a couple of players our team had a real shocker.
NZ have a lot less depth & money than Aussie & we don't play as many tests as Aussie, India or England... just shows what a superb effort it was by our blokes to win the WTC.Having a batting tail that's bat well is a top asset for any side... lot of that comes down to the each individual putting a ton of hard yakka in, practicing their batting over & over again.
And the coaching systems they are sitting in.
Having been in both coaching structure and still involved in one,it’s chalk and cheese at the moment on progressive thinking
And yes the money in the Australian coaching structure is much bigger.
But it still is stretched thin down the tiers.
