All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour
-
@dogmeat said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I don't think a change in coaches would make that much difference TBH - and you'd have to have a massive ego to believe that you could fix things overnight.
Have to disagree here. A different coaching regime can do wonders and it can change pretty quickly. Ireland managed to turn around a thumping in the QF with a different game plan under different coaches, while carrying virtually the same team.
When your backline shows no subtlety or innovation whatsoever and just keeps on shoveling the ball, that's on the attack coach. When the defensive line is so passive and gives the opposition the time and space that they shouldn't have, that's on the defence coach. When the game plan is to kick away most of the ball that you have, that's on Foster.
-
All I can really say from this game is that we were completely outgunned by an impressive Irish side. NO EXCUSES.
A few players that aren't cutting it for me -
Codie Taylor - he just lacks any real physicality at test level, from what I've seen this year I would rather throw Samisoni into that starting role, he just looks better suited when we are playing against bigger sides and it's quite noticeable when he's not there.
Brodie Rettalick - looks like a shell of his former self but I guess there aren't too many more options with Barrett back in NZ. Really need to grow some depth in this position.
Loose forwards: as already mentioned on this forum, the mix was probably off. We needed a bigger ball carrier at 6 to complement Dalton and Ardie. I don't think Blackadder played badly but the selectors probably missed the mark on that combo for a bigger Irish pack.
David Havili: unfortunately he continues to miss the mark as an International 12. I rate his skillset but he just gets smoked almost every time he tries to crash it up. Definitely need to find a bigger inside centre quick fast.
Onwards and upwards though. Bring on France.
-
I think we have the players. The problem seems to be the same old shite since 2016 and the game has moved on. If I was a Wobs fan, even losing, I would see something new being tried. The Irish and French are steaming ahead. As an AB fan, we are seeing a slight decline year after year but this is being papered over by the brilliance of some of the players and the ABs ability to be flat-track bullies (always have been, even the great teams). Coupled to this is the complete lack of innovation or any new approach, good new players yes, but they are going into the same old systems and approach. It is the staleness of the last years of the Hansen era. This is "Hansen light."
-
@bovidae said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus Blackadder should have been subbed.
I can't believe that Christie wasn't brought on to provide something different.
I think they thought TJP's leadership and tackling was more important than fast delivery as the ABs only had a little possession anyway. But given the gruelling ordeal I don't understand why they didn't refresh with the bench ASAP.
-
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I think we have the players. The problem seems to be the same old shite since 2016 and the game has moved on. If I was a Wobs fan, even losing, I would see something new being tried. The Irish and French are steaming ahead. As an AB fan, we are seeing a slight decline year after year but this is being papered over by the brilliance of some of the players and the ABs ability to be flat-track bullies (always have been, even the great teams). Coupled to this is the complete lack of innovation or any new approach, good new players yes, but they are going into the same old systems and approach. It is the staleness of the last years of the Hansen era. This is "Hansen light."
I would happily have lower scores against the weaker sides if we competed better against the stronger sides.
-
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canefan said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore player and brain drain is a natural result of our success. Few would argue that we let anyone of these players go and that they would walk into the ABs. But I think all of us would agree we are not playing to our optimal best
This is very true but it speaks to issues with our coaching and selection policies - the fact that guys who couldn’t “cut it “ in NZ can go overseas, improve their games and then out play their “better” opposite numbers in black.
Although for every Lowe there are probably 5 others that haven’t gone on or just performed as expected.
Sometimes it’s just opportunity and circumstance. The work ethic and talent were always there and because they moved overseas they got a chance.
-
@voodoo said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
I'm thought @Bones was pretty clever setting up some auto-posts to throw us off the fact that he is actually James Lowe
He looks more swarthy and middle eastern on FB but then again it could be a fake profile.
-
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@majorrage
You either want Foster gone or embrace failure.Well, let's just hope we aren't saying the same thing in two year's time with a new coach. The issues are much deeper than that in NZ Rugby - just look at how the Black Ferns were mauled.
-
@canes4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
All I can really say from this game is that we were completely outgunned by an impressive Irish side. NO EXCUSES.
A few players that aren't cutting it for me -
Codie Taylor - he just lacks any real physicality at test level, from what I've seen this year I would rather throw Samisoni into that starting role, he just looks better suited when we are playing against bigger sides and it's quite noticeable when he's not there.
Brodie Rettalick - looks like a shell of his former self but I guess there aren't too many more options with Barrett back in NZ. Really need to grow some depth in this position.
Loose forwards: as already mentioned on this forum, the mix was probably off. We needed a bigger ball carrier at 6 to complement Dalton and Ardie. I don't think Blackadder played badly but the selectors probably missed the mark on that combo for a bigger Irish pack.
David Havili: unfortunately he continues to miss the mark as an International 12. I rate his skillset but he just gets smoked almost every time he tries to crash it up. Definitely need to find a bigger inside centre quick fast.
At this stage, I wonder if it's worthwhile dumping some of the old guard for newer talent against France. Nothing to lose and might generate a bit of hunger and freshness in the team. Something drastic to focus minds and, let's face it, Foster hasn't got much to lose.
Onwards and upwards though. Bring on France.
We're going onwards (except on the pitch) but upwards?
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
At this stage, I wonder if it's worthwhile dumping some of the old guard for newer talent against France. Nothing to lose and might generate a bit of hunger and freshness in the team. Something drastic to focus minds and, let's face it, Foster hasn't got much to lose.
I think they're going to try and play fresh people. So Cane/Jacobsen/Ioane loosies, new frnot row, any lock who can walk, and quite a different backline.
-
This from the poster Highlander on Roar is one of the best analyses I’ve seen of what’s ailing the ABs.
“Somewhere deep in the heart of this coaching group and squad of players is a belief that they can run and outscore anyone, no matter the circumstances, no matter what the opposition bring.
“It’s misguided, it’s entitled and it’s just downright wrong. We don’t need to follow the years old rules of earning the right to play, we are different.”
-
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
-
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
Which is perfectly in synch with what I saw.
I think one of the worst things that happened to us was the score that had us in front at half time. Gave us belief as per above, when what was needed was something else.
Probably not something we were capable of to be honest.
-
@majorrage me too, been saying it all season, every touch of the ball they try and do something highlight reel worthy rather than do the basics, build pressure and create a real opportunity to do something highlight reel worthy
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@canes4life said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
All I can really say from this game is that we were completely outgunned by an impressive Irish side. NO EXCUSES.
A few players that aren't cutting it for me -
Codie Taylor - he just lacks any real physicality at test level, from what I've seen this year I would rather throw Samisoni into that starting role, he just looks better suited when we are playing against bigger sides and it's quite noticeable when he's not there.
Brodie Rettalick - looks like a shell of his former self but I guess there aren't too many more options with Barrett back in NZ. Really need to grow some depth in this position.
Loose forwards: as already mentioned on this forum, the mix was probably off. We needed a bigger ball carrier at 6 to complement Dalton and Ardie. I don't think Blackadder played badly but the selectors probably missed the mark on that combo for a bigger Irish pack.
David Havili: unfortunately he continues to miss the mark as an International 12. I rate his skillset but he just gets smoked almost every time he tries to crash it up. Definitely need to find a bigger inside centre quick fast.
At this stage, I wonder if it's worthwhile dumping some of the old guard for newer talent against France. Nothing to lose and might generate a bit of hunger and freshness in the team. Something drastic to focus minds and, let's face it, Foster hasn't got much to lose.
Onwards and upwards though. Bring on France.
We're going onwards (except on the pitch) but upwards?
he won't want to lose the learnings.
-
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
An assumption that marries well with the evidence. Players playing out of position. A coaching group talking about lessons that never materialise.
Assisted in no small measure by those holding a flame for certain players. Almost anyone with two eyes can see Ardie shirks the hard work come ruck time - that's been a feature of his entire career. And DMac is a fucking liability.
I could go on, but the article has already been written.
-
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Assisted in no small measure by those holding a flame for certain players.
Yeah, Fozzie has a hard on for Ardie.
-
@mrdenmore said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
This from the poster Highlander on Roar is one of the best analyses I’ve seen of what’s ailing the ABs.
“Somewhere deep in the heart of this coaching group and squad of players is a belief that they can run and outscore anyone, no matter the circumstances, no matter what the opposition bring.
“It’s misguided, it’s entitled and it’s just downright wrong. We don’t need to follow the years old rules of earning the right to play, we are different.”
Well I don't think we are fitter than other top teams now in the last 20 minutes. We don't tire them out any more.
-
@majorrage said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore That's not analysis. That's just an unproven and lazy assumption.
Which is perfectly in synch with what I saw.
I think one of the worst things that happened to us was the score that had us in front at half time. Gave us belief as per above, when what was needed was something else.
Probably not something we were capable of to be honest.
Isn't there a stat about how often the ABs lose when ahead at halftime? From memory it is very unlikely but perhaps it is changing recently.
-
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
So that's three losses in the last five games against Ireland? We really love trying the same shit and hoping for a different result.
Dunno if I've been booboo'ed but I don't think think this was a case of same shit different day, as this was a different level from the Paddies.
They completely dominated, where as I don't think they did in Chicago or 2018.
I've got a rant brewing about tight forwards and coaching (given I'm a "I want Foster to succeed " guy), but I need to articulate it upside mah head first
-
@booboo said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@tim said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
So that's three losses in the last five games against Ireland? We really love trying the same shit and hoping for a different result.
Dunno if I've been booboo'ed but I don't think think this was a case of same shit different day, as this was a different level from the Paddies.
They completely dominated, where asI don't think they did in Chicago or 2018.
I've got a rant brewing about tight forwards and coaching (given I'm a "I want Foster to succeed " guy), but I need to articulate it upside mah head first
You may eventually find these two admirable intentions
a. want Foster to succeed or
b. want the ABs to succeed
are increasingly going in opposite directions -
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey BS. This was his first year in the 12 jersey and he's offered more than Tupaea thus far.
He has been consistently shit. Not sure who should be in the centres. Like ALB but he has been off. We need a big forward of the like of Tana or Nanu along with ALB in for IMHO. But Havvilli is not the answer.
-
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey BS. This was his first year in the 12 jersey and he's offered more than Tupaea thus far.
He has been consistently shit. Not sure who should be in the centres. Like ALB but he has been off. We need a big forward of the like of Tana or Nanu along with ALB in for IMHO. But Havvilli is not the answer.
That's a patent lie. He was excellent before the games against South Africa, especially if you consider it's his first year in the 12 jersey. Agree he's not a big guy, but there's no reason why the big guy (maybe Leicester Fainga'anuku) can't play at centre. It doesn't need to be the 12.
-
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
-
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mrdenmore said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
This from the poster Highlander on Roar is one of the best analyses I’ve seen of what’s ailing the ABs.
“Somewhere deep in the heart of this coaching group and squad of players is a belief that they can run and outscore anyone, no matter the circumstances, no matter what the opposition bring.
“It’s misguided, it’s entitled and it’s just downright wrong. We don’t need to follow the years old rules of earning the right to play, we are different.”
Well I don't think we are fitter than other top teams now in the last 20 minutes. We don't tire them out any more.
With all the TMO smokos its much harder nowadays.
-
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
It is very hard to argue against your posts when your avatar is so darn cool.
-
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey BS. This was his first year in the 12 jersey and he's offered more than Tupaea thus far.
He has been consistently shit. Not sure who should be in the centres. Like ALB but he has been off. We need a big forward of the like of Tana or Nanu along with ALB in for IMHO. But Havvilli is not the answer.
That's a patent lie. He was excellent before the games against South Africa,
Let's keep in mind the level of competition.
-
Victor Meldrewreplied to mencey on 15 Nov 2021, 13:02 last edited by Victor Meldrew 15 Nov 2021, 13:03
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
-
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Let's keep in mind the level of competition.
I dunno, but perhaps that tells us a part of the problem? We think we have a great player pool and we haven't at the moment/anymore. We throw a 15 in at 12, he does a good job and looks a good prospect, but becomes a little unstuck against a tough opponent, loses confidence and then gets thrown under the bus by the critics.
Nonu has a much easier ride than Havili in many ways
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
Aki is pulling a DiCaprio smirk right about now
-
@mikethesnow said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@mencey said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stargazer said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew We need someone like Robertson. He knows how to get the best out of players.
I cannot believe that they did not appoint Robertson as coach. The current one just has not got what it take. Look how well Canterbury and the Crusaders have done under him and I do not like either but admire both. Foster never had what it takes. The whole forward pack needs to toughen the fuck up while I am on this rant.
OK. Very fair points. But what if the problems aren't Foster or aren't just Foster? What if we get Robertson in and things don't improve that much? What do we do then?
You're dead right on the mid-field, but we've had 6 years - six fucking years - to sort out some stability which takes into account injuries, and yet our options for the France game are now down to two inexperienced tyros in Ennor & Tupaea, an out-of-form Havili and/or Reiko who's a great wing but lacks goods at 13 at Test level.
That's not all down to Foster (I actually give him credit for at least trying to fix the issue) - that's down to NZRFU taking their eye off the ball on ensuring long-term player development.
Aki is pulling a DiCaprio smirk right about now
Dunno Mike, but we could sure learn from Wales on developing new players and bringing them seamlessly into the squad.
-
Interesting comments from Foster:
"I think our pack’s gone pretty well through the year. Overall, I’ve been reasonably satisfied to date"
“Certainly, we got put on the back foot a little bit last night, but parts of our forward play, I thought, was really good"
“But, consistently over 80 minutes, we’ve got to get stronger, and, also, we’ve got to make sure that we’re giving our forwards a chance to impose themselves on the opposition a bit better."
This is an interesting one. Basically saying to the backs stop messing up so that we can get the forwards into our attacking patterns.
“I thought we turned over a lot of ball in the backs within one-to-two phases again, and that’s something that actually hurt us in the first test against South Africa, even though we won it."
“We got into a similar problem [against Ireland], and that came back to bite us a little bit, so it’s really a matter of backs being accountable for the decisions they make and retaining the ball to give our forwards a chance to impose themselves, and that’s going to be a big part of the solution.”
Whether you agree with his prognosis, he's not exactly wrong that the backline in general were poor on Saturday and brought on additional pressure. In the past when the AB forwards have been under pressure, the backs have offered a way to relieve that pressure and keep the opposition honest. That outlet wasn't there on Saturday.
-
Smith will magically fix all these issues.
-
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders I think the backs aren’t given much of a chance. Yes they made mistakes and some ownership there but what kind of forward platform does he think is good? I don’t understand the man.
I think he's saying that mistakes by the backs and poor ball retention are disrupting the forwards by forcing them onto the defensive and disrupting their momentum.
-
@bones said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Smith will magically fix all these issues.
Conrad's long gone. Might be an idea to tap his not-inconsiderable brain on back-play though
-
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@bones said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Smith will magically fix all these issues.
Conrad's long gone. Might be an idea to tap his not-inconsiderable brain on back-play though
Good call on Conrad. I'm surprised Nonu and Smith aren't being brought into the fold to mentor the next set of centres.
Bones could have been referring to Wayne 😁
Although I suspect he's being sarcastic and referring to Aaron 😜
-
@stodders said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Good call on Conrad. I'm surprised Nonu and Smith aren't being brought into the fold to mentor the next set of centres.
That would require forward planning. Much easier to sit back and bask in former glories.
-
Victor Meldrewreplied to Tim on 15 Nov 2021, 17:34 last edited by Victor Meldrew 15 Nov 2021, 17:50
I'd stick with Scott McLeod on Defence. It's the one aspect of the team which seems to be working well.
EDIT: To be fair, they get loads of practice...
Post 1353 of 1512