The All Black's current midfield balance.
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@junior said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Havili's problem is that if he doesn't beat you with footwork he isn't going to get you over the advantage line. Tupaea has shown some strength post-tackle, which Havili hasn't.
The problem that both of our midfielders have - and actually it's a problem across the team at the moment - is that neither of them are really great running onto the ball. They tend to get the ball a bit flat footed and use a jink on the inside or gas on the outside, but that's a real momentum killer when you have that fish hook defensive line that the Boks play. It therefore becomes very hard to bend or break the line. Even our forwards tend to hit up the ball in that manner - even Akira did it far too often on the weekend, which defeats the purpose of having him hit up the ball.
The only person that pierced the line on a regular basis last night was Jordie. Just ran hard and straight. Ardie too
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@junior our attack sets up pretty flat compared to most international sides, so we only tend to run from distance in broken play attack
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@junior when the Aussies were good they used to having everyone running on tot he ball with pace and they kept possession. We are supposed to be fit but I hardly see this. Speed and power hitting the line matters. That is why Jordie is refreshing.
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@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
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@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
I think it works fine against defences that don't rush as quickly as the Boks do but we may have to stand deeper against them. The two attempted intercepts by the Boks could have been avoided if we weren't so flat.
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@akan004 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
I think it works fine against defences that don't rush as quickly as the Boks do but we may have to stand deeper against them. The two attempted intercepts by the Boks could have been avoided if we weren't so flat.
I thought both this week and last week the last man tipping the ball on should have been carded. Both were compromised, with an overlap outside them.
But the standard seems very different in different weeks. I don't care what the stanrdard is, as long as everyone understands it and knows the consequences of what they are doing
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@act-crusader said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@junior our attack sets up pretty flat compared to most international sides, so we only tend to run from distance in broken play attack
Which makes no sense when our whole backline strategy appears to be based on speed of foot and hand. We need to actually have some space to build up that speed in the first place. For instance, part of the appeal of having Rieko at 13 is his pace and ability to beat man in the outside or get us going forward by taking the outside shoulder. If he is getting the ball flat footed it becomes really hard to use that pace
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@akan004 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
I think it works fine against defences that don't rush as quickly as the Boks do but we may have to stand deeper against them. The two attempted intercepts by the Boks could have been avoided if we weren't so flat.
It’s works OK when our forwards are going forward and they buy us space. We have to learn that against some teams we just won’t go forward as much as we need to up front and so should be prepared to change our alignment to give the backs a bit more time and space. Christ, we do this at club level I would expect professionals to be able to do it
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@akan004 exactly. You can’t push a square peg into a round hole. Have to be able to adapt. As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
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@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@akan004 exactly. You can’t push a square peg into a round hole. Have to be able to adapt. As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
Wel you can penlaize, that's the rule now - fail take the penaly. That wasn't a sure fire try but it was a massive advantage that the Boks nullified with that penalty. I loathe it, you can't tell intent so to me, penalize the fuckers. Otherwise it is a real easy way to kill an attack.
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@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
... but presumably you don't like some weeks it being a yellow card, some weeks a penalty, and some weeks a knock on only? Because right now the reffing interpretations are pretty random.
I know it's the dead horse I flog, and there's lots of room for interpretation in some areas of the game, but basic, clear cut principles should be consistently applied week to week.
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@nzzp one in Friday night in NPC where a player stuck a hand out, ball touched and stopped getting to the next man, scrum only.
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@taniwharugby said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@nzzp one in Friday night in NPC where a player stuck a hand out, ball touched and stopped getting to the next man, scrum only.
yep. Frankly, I don't care particularly what the interpretation is, more that there is a clear expectation of what it means.
Could be something like
two hands = scrum
one hand = penalty
one hand + overlap = yellow card unless mitigation -
@nzzp said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
... but presumably you don't like some weeks it being a yellow card, some weeks a penalty, and some weeks a knock on only? Because right now the reffing interpretations are pretty random.
I know it's the dead horse I flog, and there's lots of room for interpretation in some areas of the game, but basic, clear cut principles should be consistently applied week to week.
When it is a clear professional foul such as diving forward like a slips catch to cut off a three on one overlap the YC should be the first thing that comes to mind. Not just for the advantage taken away but the ruination of the type of play that spectators pay money to watch.
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@crucial said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@nzzp said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
... but presumably you don't like some weeks it being a yellow card, some weeks a penalty, and some weeks a knock on only? Because right now the reffing interpretations are pretty random.
I know it's the dead horse I flog, and there's lots of room for interpretation in some areas of the game, but basic, clear cut principles should be consistently applied week to week.
When it is a clear professional foul such as diving forward like a slips catch to cut off a three on one overlap the YC should be the first thing that comes to mind. Not just for the advantage taken away but the ruination of the type of play that spectators pay money to watch.
I agree, but I think the refs don't align.
Do you think both last week and this week were yellow cards? I do - and arguably last week was a PT as well; cynical play that stopped a probable try
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@junior said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@akan004 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
I think it works fine against defences that don't rush as quickly as the Boks do but we may have to stand deeper against them. The two attempted intercepts by the Boks could have been avoided if we weren't so flat.
It’s works OK when our forwards are going forward and they buy us space. We have to learn that against some teams we just won’t go forward as much as we need to up front and so should be prepared to change our alignment to give the backs a bit more time and space. Christ, we do this at club level I would expect professionals to be able to do it
If it was as easy as standing deeper then surely pro teams would be doing it. A problem with standing deep is getting caught/tackled behind the line. That fucks everything up.
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@canefan said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@junior said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Havili's problem is that if he doesn't beat you with footwork he isn't going to get you over the advantage line. Tupaea has shown some strength post-tackle, which Havili hasn't.
The problem that both of our midfielders have - and actually it's a problem across the team at the moment - is that neither of them are really great running onto the ball. They tend to get the ball a bit flat footed and use a jink on the inside or gas on the outside, but that's a real momentum killer when you have that fish hook defensive line that the Boks play. It therefore becomes very hard to bend or break the line. Even our forwards tend to hit up the ball in that manner - even Akira did it far too often on the weekend, which defeats the purpose of having him hit up the ball.
The only person that pierced the line on a regular basis last night was Jordie. Just ran hard and straight. Ardie too
….and R Ioane in the lead up to Saveas try to be fair. Showed excellent strength and balance.
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@nzzp said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@crucial said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@nzzp said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
... but presumably you don't like some weeks it being a yellow card, some weeks a penalty, and some weeks a knock on only? Because right now the reffing interpretations are pretty random.
I know it's the dead horse I flog, and there's lots of room for interpretation in some areas of the game, but basic, clear cut principles should be consistently applied week to week.
When it is a clear professional foul such as diving forward like a slips catch to cut off a three on one overlap the YC should be the first thing that comes to mind. Not just for the advantage taken away but the ruination of the type of play that spectators pay money to watch.
I agree, but I think the refs don't align.
Do you think both last week and this week were yellow cards? I do - and arguably last week was a PT as well; cynical play that stopped a probable try
Absolutely. The threshold for PT has gone too far in favour of the defending team as well.They just look at 'the wide picture' and go "there's a covering defender so you may not have scored"
The Law is 'probable try". Probable means 'most likely', which by my reckoning means that the likelihood of a try would occur more often than not. You can't cop out by saying that the attackers might have made an error or that the defender might do everything perfectly. -
@crucial said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
The Law is 'probable try". Probable means 'most likely'
Splitting hairs, but the dictionary definition is just 'likely' that I'd say simply falls in the 50/50 category; either likely/probable, or unlikely/improbable rather than almost certainly which seems to be how the refs look at it, giving benefit of doubt to the offending team.
If you say that something is probable, you mean that it is likely to be true or likely to happen
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/probable
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@crazy-horse said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@junior said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@akan004 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
I think it works fine against defences that don't rush as quickly as the Boks do but we may have to stand deeper against them. The two attempted intercepts by the Boks could have been avoided if we weren't so flat.
It’s works OK when our forwards are going forward and they buy us space. We have to learn that against some teams we just won’t go forward as much as we need to up front and so should be prepared to change our alignment to give the backs a bit more time and space. Christ, we do this at club level I would expect professionals to be able to do it
If it was as easy as standing deeper then surely pro teams would be doing it. A problem with standing deep is getting caught/tackled behind the line. That fucks everything up.
I'm not pretending that standing deep is some kind if panacea and I also recognise that there are good reasons for not standing too deep - we often criticise 10s for standing too deep.
What I'm talking about is alignment, and it's not really when our 10s are standing but the guys outside them that matter. How often do our midfield start basically in line with our 10, not running onto the ball, taking the ball flat-footed, which makes it hard to put a pass in front of them and also difficult to take the space that the rush defence seeks to occupy? There's nothing wring with guys receiving the ball flat to the guy inside them, but that should not be the position where they start their runs from for these very obvious reasons
