The All Black's current midfield balance.
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@act-crusader said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@kiwi_expat said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bobily2 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach.Personally, I think they're a decent combo and will go well in 80-90% of our games. I do think, against top teams with a strong rush defense, we occasionally need someone who is a little better at carting the ball up into traffic. Ideally this role isn't primarily taken by a forward, as sometimes the right option will be to switch it up and pass it out a little wider.
I think Havili has done admirably in his positional switch from fullback, but he doesn't present a sustainable long-term option at 12, especially against more physical sides like SA/England, he's more of a makeshift 12, if we're being completely honest.
And besides, it's obvious both Dave and ALB are more jinky, sideways runners on attack. Ideally, we need to find a more healthy balance and a little bit more variety in that space.
Foster needs to develop a more complementary midfield combination.
I think heading into the test season, the first choice would’ve been ALB and Goodhue. That’s a pretty robust combo.
Injury hit and they go with the next available option who was playing well and has some AB experience - Havili.
ALB gets crook and they go with the next best option - Ioane.
ALB comes back and they play him, no surprises there, just a question on match fitness.
Ennor, Tups will get their opportunities given the situation with the squad and travel. Will be interesting to see how they go.
Some fair points, I tend to agree. I think we need to pick the best combination, not the supposed best in each position and then hope they can gel. Pick the best combination and they will work themselves into the best players in their position. Nonu and Conrad, Little and Bunce for example - good players who's combination together turned them individually into greats.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
I've been rather vocal about Jordie-Goodhue being the best midfield combo but that will probably never happen. LF looks the goods but could be (like early days Nonu) exposed at the top level.
Definitely an area of weakness.
If Goodhue comes back from his injury okay, he will be the man to sure-up the defense in our midfield against big ball-carrying teams. We haven't really seen much of Tupaea at this level, but looks to have a huge amount of potential, so I'd to see him get a lot more game time going forward.
Perhaps controversial, but I felt that Goodhue was a lot more effective in that crash-ball distribution role for the All Blacks than Havili (& even the Crusaders 2020 campaign) last year in 2020, when he was playing at second-five, instead of his preferred position at 13.
Tupaea 12, Goodhue 13, is a potential combination that could provide a really nice balance for the midfield.
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@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.I don't get this line of thinking. "Obvious issue, let's ignore it."
You know you can fix both. If Havili is the best solution then stick with him until something better comes along, but we have to acknowledge that occasionally we're going to come up against teams that are just as capable at winning collisions as we are. That was South Africa last night, so we need options that can carry into traffic and win collisions. The way to create space is to present multiple threats; passing, kicking, carrying. We did very little of that well.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Speaking of getting game time. Ennor should get some more, too.
I'm expecting to see a Tupaea-Ennor midfield against the USA.
Christ I hope not. What would that tell us? What has Ennor done this year to deserve a Test start at centre.
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@antipodean said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Speaking of getting game time. Ennor should get some more, too.
I'm expecting to see a Tupaea-Ennor midfield against the USA.
Christ I hope not. What would that tell us? What has Ennor done this year to deserve a Test start at centre.
To be fair, I'm not sure if we could pick a midfield that would actually tell us anything more, particularly while limiting ourselves to players that deserve a start
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@rancid-schnitzel said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach.Shifting BB with RM won't change anything. Havili is like Mark Ellis - good player but Jack of all trades, master of none.
I seriously doubt he’s as good with the quips as Ellis despite the ‘zany’ haircuts
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@kiwi_expat rts and reiko for blues and world cup game breakers with speed to burn
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@antipodean said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Speaking of getting game time. Ennor should get some more, too.
I'm expecting to see a Tupaea-Ennor midfield against the USA.
Christ I hope not. What would that tell us? What has Ennor done this year to deserve a Test start at centre.
They will use this "test" to give some of the squad a much-needed game, e.g., de Groot, Vaa'i, Sotutu, Christie etc. Hell, Bridge will probably score a hat-trick.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Havili's problem is that if he doesn't beat you with footwork he isn't going to get you over the advantage line. Tupaea has shown some strength post-tackle, which Havili hasn't.
The problem that both of our midfielders have - and actually it's a problem across the team at the moment - is that neither of them are really great running onto the ball. They tend to get the ball a bit flat footed and use a jink on the inside or gas on the outside, but that's a real momentum killer when you have that fish hook defensive line that the Boks play. It therefore becomes very hard to bend or break the line. Even our forwards tend to hit up the ball in that manner - even Akira did it far too often on the weekend, which defeats the purpose of having him hit up the ball.
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@junior said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Havili's problem is that if he doesn't beat you with footwork he isn't going to get you over the advantage line. Tupaea has shown some strength post-tackle, which Havili hasn't.
The problem that both of our midfielders have - and actually it's a problem across the team at the moment - is that neither of them are really great running onto the ball. They tend to get the ball a bit flat footed and use a jink on the inside or gas on the outside, but that's a real momentum killer when you have that fish hook defensive line that the Boks play. It therefore becomes very hard to bend or break the line. Even our forwards tend to hit up the ball in that manner - even Akira did it far too often on the weekend, which defeats the purpose of having him hit up the ball.
The only person that pierced the line on a regular basis last night was Jordie. Just ran hard and straight. Ardie too
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@junior our attack sets up pretty flat compared to most international sides, so we only tend to run from distance in broken play attack
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@junior when the Aussies were good they used to having everyone running on tot he ball with pace and they kept possession. We are supposed to be fit but I hardly see this. Speed and power hitting the line matters. That is why Jordie is refreshing.
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@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
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@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
I think it works fine against defences that don't rush as quickly as the Boks do but we may have to stand deeper against them. The two attempted intercepts by the Boks could have been avoided if we weren't so flat.
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@akan004 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
I think it works fine against defences that don't rush as quickly as the Boks do but we may have to stand deeper against them. The two attempted intercepts by the Boks could have been avoided if we weren't so flat.
I thought both this week and last week the last man tipping the ball on should have been carded. Both were compromised, with an overlap outside them.
But the standard seems very different in different weeks. I don't care what the stanrdard is, as long as everyone understands it and knows the consequences of what they are doing
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@act-crusader said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@junior our attack sets up pretty flat compared to most international sides, so we only tend to run from distance in broken play attack
Which makes no sense when our whole backline strategy appears to be based on speed of foot and hand. We need to actually have some space to build up that speed in the first place. For instance, part of the appeal of having Rieko at 13 is his pace and ability to beat man in the outside or get us going forward by taking the outside shoulder. If he is getting the ball flat footed it becomes really hard to use that pace
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@akan004 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@act-crusader well it does not seem to work all the time especially when there is no space.
I think it works fine against defences that don't rush as quickly as the Boks do but we may have to stand deeper against them. The two attempted intercepts by the Boks could have been avoided if we weren't so flat.
It’s works OK when our forwards are going forward and they buy us space. We have to learn that against some teams we just won’t go forward as much as we need to up front and so should be prepared to change our alignment to give the backs a bit more time and space. Christ, we do this at club level I would expect professionals to be able to do it
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@akan004 exactly. You can’t push a square peg into a round hole. Have to be able to adapt. As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
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@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@akan004 exactly. You can’t push a square peg into a round hole. Have to be able to adapt. As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
Wel you can penlaize, that's the rule now - fail take the penaly. That wasn't a sure fire try but it was a massive advantage that the Boks nullified with that penalty. I loathe it, you can't tell intent so to me, penalize the fuckers. Otherwise it is a real easy way to kill an attack.
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@broughie said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
As to the intercept issue I think you can’t penalize I player for trying to make an intercept. To me it really has to be blatant and no chance of being caught. Penalizing a team for a poor pass is stupid.
... but presumably you don't like some weeks it being a yellow card, some weeks a penalty, and some weeks a knock on only? Because right now the reffing interpretations are pretty random.
I know it's the dead horse I flog, and there's lots of room for interpretation in some areas of the game, but basic, clear cut principles should be consistently applied week to week.
