The All Black's current midfield balance.
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I've been rather vocal about Jordie-Goodhue being the best midfield combo but that will probably never happen. LF looks the goods but could be (like early days Nonu) exposed at the top level.
Definitely an area of weakness.
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@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach.Shifting BB with RM won't change anything. Havili is like Mark Ellis - good player but Jack of all trades, master of none.
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@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
The problem is ALB & Havili carry too many of the same traits in the midfield.
While Havili was alright with the crash-ball role, you ideally need someone like a Ma'a/SBW/Ngatai who's game style is structured & developed around that, and actually complements ALB or Havili's style of play..
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@kiwi_expat said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bobily2 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
I like what Havili has brought to the table at a time when we had few options - however, agreed, he isn't a long-term option. Will be interesting what happens at the Crusaders next year. I imagine he continues at 12, but Goodhue is on the slower side for a 13.
For me, 12 is a position in which you rarely see someone come out of school and dominate at. Presumably the pace of the defense is a lot faster at the professional level, and 12 is probably one of the positions where you get the least time to make a decision. When you add in that you have to be strong defensively, physically quite large to ensure you're not getting forced backwards on the carry, a decent kicking option in case the 10 is in a ruck and a good playmaking option under pressure - it's a long list of requirements, particularly for players who were likely able to rely on simply being the biggest and fastest at schoolboy level.
In our early U20 teams we had a lot of guys who perhaps didn't have the size to make it at the top level (TJ Faiane, Tei Walden, Shaun Treeby), but in more recent years we've been selecting a larger midfield (Tele'a, Gregory, T Umaga-Jensen). I guess the question mark for these larger guys is whether they have the skillset needed, and particularly, whether they can perform these skills under pressure. Some of this development can only happen if they're given enough game time - and some of it dependent on the players themselves and how much they're willing to work on it. Too often, I feel, we're relying on stopgap options at 12 who we know will never be good enough, rather than allowing some of more promising options to get better (e.g. Sio Tomkinson ahead of Scott Gregory).
Aside from Havili and Lienert-Brown, the players I see who have the potential to wear the 12 jersey over the next few years (edit - by few years I mean 2 - 6 years) are:
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Quinn Tupaea - the most obvious. He will likely be getting consistent game time, crucially alongside Anton Lienert-Brown. He can break tackles easily. I'd like to see him round out his game a little better - I think he has the skills, so likely just needs to get a little better at performing these under pressure. This takes time.
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Scott Gregory - Played well this year for the Highlanders. He's big and can cart the ball up. Again, he needs work on the playmaking side of things. I'd like to see the Highlanders persist with him. Unless TUJ stops getting injured, he will likely get a lot of game time in the future
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Thomas Umaga-Jensen - Big question mark is whether he can actually get enough games together to put forward his case for selection, let alone get a bit of experience under his belt.
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Peter Umaga-Jensen - It would be good to see more of him at 12, but he looks to have the size and skills. Will likely have the 12 jersey for the Hurricanes going forward (or at least you'd think he would - with the Canes coaches, you never know).
There are a few other players who I think have/could develop the skillset required to be an AB 12, but I don't think they'll get the time in the jersey that they'd need (e.g. Leicester Fainga'anuku, Jordie Barrett (why would we, at this point?).
Tony Brown had huge wraps on Thomas Umaga-Jensen, sees him as a future long-term All Black.
Massive frame, really impressive physical specimen at just 22, & very similar in physique to SBW. Once he fills out he could potentially become the most powerful & destructive line-breaking midfielder in NZ since Nonu, by all accounts he's even better than his brother at the Hurricanes.
In the Highlanders - Crusaders game TUJ was very very impressive. I can see the hype. Hopefully he can stay fit.
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@kiwi_expat I hope that big Leicester will develop into that kind of player. If Covid and MIQ requirements hadn't limited team selection, he might have been in the squad. Hopefully, he'll continue to develop well, next season.
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@crazy-horse said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Happy to be wrong about this in years to come, but I do not see anything yet in Tupaea's game that suggests he is the long term answer. He has been ok, but what does he bring to the table that others don't? He does not seem bigger, or quicker, or more intelligent, or a better passer, or a better tackler. Those that reckon he is the long term answer-why? What does he do better than the other options?
I don't even recall Chiefs fans going on about him this year.
To me he seems to have a good balance of all of those skills. He may not be the biggest, but he seems to play above his weight a little, and looks like he could put on a little without losing too much agility or pace. He might not be the fastest, but he definitely is reasonably quick. He looks to have good skills, and generally a good awareness of when he should pass and when he should hold on to it. He also seems solid enough on defense, with perhaps a little bit of work needed on his defensive alignment.
As he gains experience, I'd expect to see him improve on his ability to read the play, and make better use of his passing skills. I'd also expect to see some of the defensive errors disappear.
It's not that I necessarily see him as the most likely to be a long-term option there, but I see him as being better than Havili within the next couple of years, so I'd prefer to invest the time in him now.
Obviously, TUJ or PUJ might have a breakout season at 12, and we'd reassess whether they'd be a better starting option.
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@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Speaking of getting game time. Ennor should get some more, too.
I'm expecting to see a Tupaea-Ennor midfield against the USA.
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@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach.Personally, I think they're a decent combo and will go well in 80-90% of our games. I do think, against top teams with a strong rush defense, we occasionally need someone who is a little better at carting the ball up into traffic. Ideally this role isn't primarily taken by a forward, as sometimes the right option will be to switch it up and pass it out a little wider.
There are definitely work arounds, though. Ioane/Clarke coming off the wing. Jordie Barrett crashballing it.
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@bobily2 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach.Personally, I think they're a decent combo and will go well in 80-90% of our games. I do think, against top teams with a strong rush defense, we occasionally need someone who is a little better at carting the ball up into traffic. Ideally this role isn't primarily taken by a forward, as sometimes the right option will be to switch it up and pass it out a little wider.
I think Havili has done admirably in his positional switch from fullback, but he doesn't present a sustainable long-term option at 12, especially against more physical sides like SA/England, he's more of a makeshift 12, if we're being completely honest.
And besides, it's obvious both Dave and ALB are more jinky, sideways runners on attack. Ideally, we need to find a more healthy balance and a little bit more variety in that space.
Foster needs to develop a more complementary midfield combination.
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@kiwi_expat said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bobily2 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach.Personally, I think they're a decent combo and will go well in 80-90% of our games. I do think, against top teams with a strong rush defense, we occasionally need someone who is a little better at carting the ball up into traffic. Ideally this role isn't primarily taken by a forward, as sometimes the right option will be to switch it up and pass it out a little wider.
I think Havili has done admirably in his positional switch from fullback, but he doesn't present a sustainable long-term option at 12, especially against more physical sides like SA/England, he's more of a makeshift 12, if we're being completely honest.
And besides, it's obvious both Dave and ALB are more jinky, sideways runners on attack. Ideally, we need to find a more healthy balance and a little bit more variety in that space.
Foster needs to develop a more complementary midfield combination.
I think heading into the test season, the first choice would’ve been ALB and Goodhue. That’s a pretty robust combo.
Injury hit and they go with the next available option who was playing well and has some AB experience - Havili.
ALB gets crook and they go with the next best option - Ioane.
ALB comes back and they play him, no surprises there, just a question on match fitness.
Ennor, Tups will get their opportunities given the situation with the squad and travel. Will be interesting to see how they go.
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@act-crusader said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@kiwi_expat said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bobily2 said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach.Personally, I think they're a decent combo and will go well in 80-90% of our games. I do think, against top teams with a strong rush defense, we occasionally need someone who is a little better at carting the ball up into traffic. Ideally this role isn't primarily taken by a forward, as sometimes the right option will be to switch it up and pass it out a little wider.
I think Havili has done admirably in his positional switch from fullback, but he doesn't present a sustainable long-term option at 12, especially against more physical sides like SA/England, he's more of a makeshift 12, if we're being completely honest.
And besides, it's obvious both Dave and ALB are more jinky, sideways runners on attack. Ideally, we need to find a more healthy balance and a little bit more variety in that space.
Foster needs to develop a more complementary midfield combination.
I think heading into the test season, the first choice would’ve been ALB and Goodhue. That’s a pretty robust combo.
Injury hit and they go with the next available option who was playing well and has some AB experience - Havili.
ALB gets crook and they go with the next best option - Ioane.
ALB comes back and they play him, no surprises there, just a question on match fitness.
Ennor, Tups will get their opportunities given the situation with the squad and travel. Will be interesting to see how they go.
Some fair points, I tend to agree. I think we need to pick the best combination, not the supposed best in each position and then hope they can gel. Pick the best combination and they will work themselves into the best players in their position. Nonu and Conrad, Little and Bunce for example - good players who's combination together turned them individually into greats.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
I've been rather vocal about Jordie-Goodhue being the best midfield combo but that will probably never happen. LF looks the goods but could be (like early days Nonu) exposed at the top level.
Definitely an area of weakness.
If Goodhue comes back from his injury okay, he will be the man to sure-up the defense in our midfield against big ball-carrying teams. We haven't really seen much of Tupaea at this level, but looks to have a huge amount of potential, so I'd to see him get a lot more game time going forward.
Perhaps controversial, but I felt that Goodhue was a lot more effective in that crash-ball distribution role for the All Blacks than Havili (& even the Crusaders 2020 campaign) last year in 2020, when he was playing at second-five, instead of his preferred position at 13.
Tupaea 12, Goodhue 13, is a potential combination that could provide a really nice balance for the midfield.
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@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.I don't get this line of thinking. "Obvious issue, let's ignore it."
You know you can fix both. If Havili is the best solution then stick with him until something better comes along, but we have to acknowledge that occasionally we're going to come up against teams that are just as capable at winning collisions as we are. That was South Africa last night, so we need options that can carry into traffic and win collisions. The way to create space is to present multiple threats; passing, kicking, carrying. We did very little of that well.
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@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Speaking of getting game time. Ennor should get some more, too.
I'm expecting to see a Tupaea-Ennor midfield against the USA.
Christ I hope not. What would that tell us? What has Ennor done this year to deserve a Test start at centre.
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@antipodean said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Speaking of getting game time. Ennor should get some more, too.
I'm expecting to see a Tupaea-Ennor midfield against the USA.
Christ I hope not. What would that tell us? What has Ennor done this year to deserve a Test start at centre.
To be fair, I'm not sure if we could pick a midfield that would actually tell us anything more, particularly while limiting ourselves to players that deserve a start
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@rancid-schnitzel said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
It's ridiculous to write off the Havili-ALB combo at this stage.
ALB has been injured a lot. Now that he's back, let this combo play together and give them time to gel.
They played with BB inside them. He's not the answer at 10. Keep Mo'unga there.
The forward pack got dominated. Fix that first. That will give the backs more time.
Don't expect Havili or ALB to be a Nonu. That's the wrong approach.Shifting BB with RM won't change anything. Havili is like Mark Ellis - good player but Jack of all trades, master of none.
I seriously doubt he’s as good with the quips as Ellis despite the ‘zany’ haircuts
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@kiwi_expat rts and reiko for blues and world cup game breakers with speed to burn
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@antipodean said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@bovidae said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
@stargazer said in The All Black's current midfield balance.:
Speaking of getting game time. Ennor should get some more, too.
I'm expecting to see a Tupaea-Ennor midfield against the USA.
Christ I hope not. What would that tell us? What has Ennor done this year to deserve a Test start at centre.
They will use this "test" to give some of the squad a much-needed game, e.g., de Groot, Vaa'i, Sotutu, Christie etc. Hell, Bridge will probably score a hat-trick.
