ABs that arrived ‘fully formed’
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[edit - split from a match thread]
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@act-crusader yes he was. The main criticism was he was too loose and didn't do the hard work.
Sounds familar, actually...
AB supporters are pretty hard on youngsters imho. How many arrive "fully formed"? Off the top of my head ...
- Dan Carter (still was given a little time at 12 in 2003-4? but not much. Great by 2005)
- Richie McCaw (MoM in his first match, 2001 - Ireland?)
- Brodie Retallick was top class pretty rapidly
- Probably a few "latest winger" sensations like Roks, Sivi, Rieko
Serious question btw ... just my feeling is only a few real greats look "world beaters" immediately especially at 4-5-6-7-8 and 9-10-12-13-15.
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@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@act-crusader yes he was. The main criticism was he was too loose and didn't do the hard work.
Sounds familar, actually...
AB supporters are pretty hard on youngsters imho. How many arrive "fully formed"? Off the top of my head ...
- Dan Carter (still was given a little time at 12 in 2003-4? but not much. Great by 2005)
- Richie McCaw (MoM in his first match, 2001 - Ireland?)
- Brodie Retallick was top class pretty rapidly
- Probably a few "latest winger" sensations like Roks, Sivi, Rieko
Serious question btw ... just my feeling is only a few real greats look "world beaters" immediately especially at 4-5-6-7-8 and 9-10-12-13-15.
IRRC Read turned up a world beater on his first tour. Sam Whitelock was pretty good too his first tour north.
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I specifically remember watching Cory Jane as a youngster playing for Wellington and thinking "that guy will never be an AB". He had an average game, and it may have been his long hair at the time
Let's say I got it badly wrong! I'd kill to have him back now, vs a tight team like the Boks or England especially.
Now I keep an open mind on the potential of newbies like Scott Gregory even after watching that terrible game he had at 15.
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@antipodean said in ABs that arrived ‘fully formed’:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@act-crusader yes he was. The main criticism was he was too loose and didn't do the hard work.
Sounds familar, actually...
AB supporters are pretty hard on youngsters imho. How many arrive "fully formed"? Off the top of my head ...
- Dan Carter (still was given a little time at 12 in 2003-4? but not much. Great by 2005)
- Richie McCaw (MoM in his first match, 2001 - Ireland?)
- Brodie Retallick was top class pretty rapidly
- Probably a few "latest winger" sensations like Roks, Sivi, Rieko
Serious question btw ... just my feeling is only a few real greats look "world beaters" immediately especially at 4-5-6-7-8 and 9-10-12-13-15.
IRRC Read turned up a world beater on his first tour. Sam Whitelock was pretty good too his first tour north.
Merhtens was good straight away as well.
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MJ arrived fully formed. Arguably so did Smokin Joe, he just arrived really really late.
@kirwan said in ABs that arrived ‘fully formed’:
@antipodean said in ABs that arrived ‘fully formed’:
@l_n_p said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@act-crusader yes he was. The main criticism was he was too loose and didn't do the hard work.
Sounds familar, actually...
AB supporters are pretty hard on youngsters imho. How many arrive "fully formed"? Off the top of my head ...
- Dan Carter (still was given a little time at 12 in 2003-4? but not much. Great by 2005)
- Richie McCaw (MoM in his first match, 2001 - Ireland?)
- Brodie Retallick was top class pretty rapidly
- Probably a few "latest winger" sensations like Roks, Sivi, Rieko
Serious question btw ... just my feeling is only a few real greats look "world beaters" immediately especially at 4-5-6-7-8 and 9-10-12-13-15.
IRRC Read turned up a world beater on his first tour. Sam Whitelock was pretty good too his first tour north.
Merhtens was good straight away as well.
As was current Fern whipping boy Kronfeld from the same era.
Also Christian Cullen in 1996.
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@l_n_p said in ABs that arrived ‘fully formed’:
[edit - split from a match thread]
@kirwan said in All Blacks vs Springboks I:
@act-crusader yes he was. The main criticism was he was too loose and didn't do the hard work.
Sounds familar, actually...
- Probably a few "latest winger" sensations like Roks, Sivi, Rieko
J Savea too. In fact it's probably much harder to still be performing to the very high level expected of an AB winger after 4-5 years than it is to hit the ground running in that position.
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@l_n_p said in ABs that arrived ‘fully formed’:
I specifically remember watching Cory Jane as a youngster playing for Wellington and thinking "that guy will never be an AB". He had an average game, and it may have been his long hair at the time
Let's say I got it badly wrong! I'd kill to have him back now, vs a tight team like the Boks or England especially.
Now I keep an open mind on the potential of newbies like Scott Gregory even after watching that terrible game he had at 15.
Jane was an okay XVs player to start out but nothing that said “he’s an AB”. I did like him as a 7s player. Became an awesome AB.
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@frye said in ABs that arrived ‘fully formed’:
J Savea too. In fact it's probably much harder to still be performing to the very high level expected of an AB winger after 4-5 years than it is to hit the ground running in that position.
Whereas prop is a position that tends to need experience, and it's harder to judge early on.
Carl Hayman? Olo Brown?
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Some positions need time in the saddle. No.6 and 8 comes to mind. Kaino and a number of young players have had all sorts of problems early on. Maybe players need to adjust to the physicality of test rugby in those positions.
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I saw Andrew Mehrtens play in Brisbane in early 1995. He was very average and almost missed a kick from right in front. Few months later he was one of the best players of the RWC. Like most things you have to look at their full body of work and the circumstances.
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@nepia said in ABs that arrived ‘fully formed’:
MJ arrived fully formed. Arguably so did Smokin Joe, he just arrived really really late.
Slight tangent, Buck gave an interview on Melbourne sport radio (SEN, basically an Aussie Rules dominated radio station) yesterday and it was brilliant just to hear the man on Aussie radio. Buck mentioned him and Joe being the older guys in the team at one point.
Below is a link to it.
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MJ arrived fully formed. Arguably so did Smokin Joe, he just arrived really really late.
Same could be said for Bunce. I don't remember Walter Little needing much time to bed in either, maybe in small part because he played with his provincial mate
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@crazy-horse Re Caleb Clarke, also unconvinced but if Auckland or Blues wingers, surely John Kirwan? Marist and Auckland debut in 83, AB debut in 84. Meteoric rise, then ...
By 85 and obviously 86 he was world class - pace, step and ability to offload in the tackle.
The two international wingers I remember from around then were JK, and Patrice Lagisquet.
There may be others in that 1987 RWC winning side.
