Wallabies vs Springboks I
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@booboo said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
I revkon this is kind of making my point. The backs are there as cover. A necessary evil. Not to provide impact.
That bench screams 10 man rugby to me, perhaps even 9 man.I think a 6-2 man bench isn't necessarily a negative tactic, just a realistic one given the way the game is played currently. In general I think you're going to get more output from another loosie rather than a midfielder.
Anyway Willemse as 10 backup looks a bit of a gamble. He has been a bit flaky so far at test level and doesn't have a lot of experience at 10. Hope Pollard doesn't get injured.
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@junior said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
I've watched Bledisloe 3 a couple of times but with my AB eye-patch on
I don't really get the Aussie tactics. Playing the AB's at their own game as they did seems insane, the result was pretty much what you'd expect.
Especially with the Boks next up, why did they not try a tighter more set-piece (yes defensive) orientated game. Perhaps it would have been damage limitation but occasionally you get lucky. The aussie backs look either pretty average or pretty inexperienced (or both) at the moment.
For all the hyping of Tate McDermott, he has a slow pass with limited range. And his running game doesn't bring others into play ... perhaps says more about aussie team than him. Noah Lolisio may be good in time but in NZ rugby he would probably be treated more like Zarn Sullivan i.e. give him time to develop (and Zarn, from what I've seen, may have that ultimate gift for a 10, he always seems to have time).
I'd have Nick White at 9 versus the Boks. Decent pass. Brings his forwards in better. Better kicking game. There are no decent options at 10 until JOC is back and JOC is still only a safe pair of hands at 10.
I don't envy Dave Rennie tbh.
Dave's big problem is that Aussie sports / rugby fans will never get behind a team that plays "pragmatic" rugby. They love a winner that plays hard and pushes boundaries, but they really hate dour, defence-first, conservative teams. It's probably part of the national psyche that their sports teams, and people, are meant to have a crack.
Slightly OT, but I get the feeling that if the Wallabies played nine man rugby to win the Bledisloe, they'd be singing the praises of "proper rugby".
And then quickly complain about not running it the next season.
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@antipodean yup. But to play 9 man rugby you now need 13 mean bastards capable of doing the damage.
As someone said upthread, short of significant systemic change Oz isn’t likely to produce that many mongrels at once any time soon.
For different reasons SA has the opposite problem. I can’t remember a time when the boks had more than a pair of international caliber centres available for selection. And we’ve had long stretches when we fielded none (we put Jorrie Muller onto an international pitch!)
Ditto flyhalves. And fullbacks.
So it’s lucky that most of the SA rugby public are more than satisfied to win a tryless match by a dodgy dropgoal so long as, to paraphrase a great filmmaker, the boks fucked the opposition up, physically.
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@smuts I have theory as why we struggle to produce centres as compared to say locks. When they select the craven week teams (especially here in the WC) they only look at the big three schools. It is far harder to miss a 6'8 guy from Tygerberg than it is a center playing in for Bellville.
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@antipodean said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@junior said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
I've watched Bledisloe 3 a couple of times but with my AB eye-patch on
I don't really get the Aussie tactics. Playing the AB's at their own game as they did seems insane, the result was pretty much what you'd expect.
Especially with the Boks next up, why did they not try a tighter more set-piece (yes defensive) orientated game. Perhaps it would have been damage limitation but occasionally you get lucky. The aussie backs look either pretty average or pretty inexperienced (or both) at the moment.
For all the hyping of Tate McDermott, he has a slow pass with limited range. And his running game doesn't bring others into play ... perhaps says more about aussie team than him. Noah Lolisio may be good in time but in NZ rugby he would probably be treated more like Zarn Sullivan i.e. give him time to develop (and Zarn, from what I've seen, may have that ultimate gift for a 10, he always seems to have time).
I'd have Nick White at 9 versus the Boks. Decent pass. Brings his forwards in better. Better kicking game. There are no decent options at 10 until JOC is back and JOC is still only a safe pair of hands at 10.
I don't envy Dave Rennie tbh.
Dave's big problem is that Aussie sports / rugby fans will never get behind a team that plays "pragmatic" rugby. They love a winner that plays hard and pushes boundaries, but they really hate dour, defence-first, conservative teams. It's probably part of the national psyche that their sports teams, and people, are meant to have a crack.
Slightly OT, but I get the feeling that if the Wallabies played nine man rugby to win the Bledisloe, they'd be singing the praises of "proper rugby".
And then quickly complain about not running it the next season.
You're probably right. Any "tolerance" of pragmatism will be fairly short-lived even if it leads to them winning because they like to win the right way
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@sidbarret said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@smuts I have theory as why we struggle to produce centres as compared to say locks. When they select the craven week teams (especially here in the WC) they only look at the big three schools. It is far harder to miss a 6'8 guy from Tygerberg than it is a center playing in for Bellville.
Am I missing something here? In my rugby lifetime, I can remember the following Springbok midfielders, all of whom were pretty decent: Danie Gerber, Hennie Le Roux, Jaapie Mulder, Pieter Muller, Marius Joubert (in combination with De Wet Barry), Jacques Fourie, Jean De Villiers, Kriel, De Allende and Am.
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@junior said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@l_n_p said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
I've watched Bledisloe 3 a couple of times but with my AB eye-patch on
I don't really get the Aussie tactics. Playing the AB's at their own game as they did seems insane, the result was pretty much what you'd expect.
Especially with the Boks next up, why did they not try a tighter more set-piece (yes defensive) orientated game. Perhaps it would have been damage limitation but occasionally you get lucky. The aussie backs look either pretty average or pretty inexperienced (or both) at the moment.
For all the hyping of Tate McDermott, he has a slow pass with limited range. And his running game doesn't bring others into play ... perhaps says more about aussie team than him. Noah Lolisio may be good in time but in NZ rugby he would probably be treated more like Zarn Sullivan i.e. give him time to develop (and Zarn, from what I've seen, may have that ultimate gift for a 10, he always seems to have time).
I'd have Nick White at 9 versus the Boks. Decent pass. Brings his forwards in better. Better kicking game. There are no decent options at 10 until JOC is back and JOC is still only a safe pair of hands at 10.
I don't envy Dave Rennie tbh.
Dave's big problem is that Aussie sports / rugby fans will never get behind a team that plays "pragmatic" rugby. They love a winner that plays hard and pushes boundaries, but they really hate dour, defence-first, conservative teams. It's probably part of the national psyche that their sports teams, and people, are meant to have a crack.
Not sure that's a big problem for Dave is it? Can't say when I think of teams he's coached, I think "pragmatic".
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The Boks feed off mistakes. I think I’d start with To’omua at 10 with Lolesio to come off bench.
Also, Boks defence struggles with 10 who plays flat, that would be the way I’d want them to play.
Need best scrummaging hooker (BPA?) to start. Mbonambi Is the key to Bok scrum. The first half scrums will be a searching examination, so also start best scrummaging locks. @NTA best placed to fill in names!
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@frye said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@booboo said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
I revkon this is kind of making my point. The backs are there as cover. A necessary evil. Not to provide impact.
That bench screams 10 man rugby to me, perhaps even 9 man.I think a 6-2 man bench isn't necessarily a negative tactic, just a realistic one given the way the game is played currently. In general I think you're going to get more output from another loosie rather than a midfielder.
Anyway Willemse as 10 backup looks a bit of a gamble. He has been a bit flaky so far at test level and doesn't have a lot of experience at 10. Hope Pollard doesn't get injured.
Didn't say negative. Just said not razzle dazzle.
I'm saying it's telegraphing how they will attack.
Really doesnt matter that everyone knows what they're doing. If they bring the bash like they want they'll be damned hard to beat.
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@junior said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@sidbarret said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@smuts I have theory as why we struggle to produce centres as compared to say locks. When they select the craven week teams (especially here in the WC) they only look at the big three schools. It is far harder to miss a 6'8 guy from Tygerberg than it is a center playing in for Bellville.
Am I missing something here? In my rugby lifetime, I can remember the following Springbok midfielders, all of whom were pretty decent: Danie Gerber, Hennie Le Roux, Jaapie Mulder, Pieter Muller, Marius Joubert (in combination with De Wet Barry), Jacques Fourie, Jean De Villiers, Kriel, De Allende and Am.
3 of those were (or in Mirrors Kriel’s case: is) extremely limited. But my point was really that the drop off from that short list has always been extremely steep (even if you missed Muir, Venter, Snyman and for the blink of an eye Stewart.)
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@junior Am and Ellende is a top combination these days. Add Mapimpi and Kolbey and Pollard in 10 and it all add up to one of the best Bok backlines for a very long time. Wish the coaches will change our gameplan to less box and up and unders kicks. It work at the moment but giving it more air may also work. Maybe the next 4 tests will make them change. Maybe.
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@sidbarret Ellende is from Milnerton, Am from High School de Vos Malan. They are less rugby schools then Bellville
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@sidbarret that’s definitely one facet of the problem. In general I’d say there have been far, far too many bang-average Bishops (insert overpriced school of Capistagno’s choice here) okes selected (at every level) and far, far too few rougher players from De Aar Technical College (no idea what the actual WP schools catchment is.)
But another problem is how few Bobos and JP Pietersens there are. On the one game I saw him play, Bobo was a pretty average schoolboy flank but a more than handy super level centre. Most of our schoolboy coaches are unimaginative, naturally conservative and not all that technically adept. So if a kid was labelled a lock, loosie or prop by the poor bugger coaching u14Cs that’s what he was at open level. And all too often they refuse to drop the old boy’s son who was the hormone wing for the feeder school but is now an undersized, three-legged rocking horse who envies the hands on a digital watch.
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@smuts sure.
Craven Week is not the breed of talented players nowadays. Easter Tournaments is more the scouters dream. Problem is we don't had any schoolboy rugby for two seasons.
I know the Western Cape schoolboy setup well, walking line for my kids schooled at Paarl Gim and the youngest at Paul Roos.
Paul Roos advert running rugby (win or loose), delivering modern players like Kitshoff, Schalk Brits, Willie , Willemse & Hershell Jantjies.
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@smuts said in Wallabies vs Springboks I:
@oompb you’re underlining SB’s point: DdA was a freak. So the system picked him out. Am very, very nearly got lost.
Hard to believe De Allende's record against NZ is 1/10 and against Australia is 0/3.
