Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
I always remember talking to a load of Welshmen during Lions tour to Aussie in 2001, and them asking me how NZ let Henry go, they thought he was great.
I've heard that too. His legacy was far more than simply coaching the national team and been told he was heavily involved in re-structuring the game in Wales.
As an aside, my Welsh mate's wife was an Assistant Headteacher and went to talk by Henry on education & extra-curricular activities. She said it was poss. the best lecture she'd ever been to and he was clearly top of tree on education thinking.
Looking in from the outside I'd say one of the biggest successes he had with Wales (aside from the re-structure - jury still out I'd say), was how he instilled belief in the national squad. His biggest mistake for me was taking on the Lions job in 2001 where I feel he lost that belief by overlooking many Welsh players. Gatland didn't make that mistake.
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@catogrande said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
I always remember talking to a load of Welshmen during Lions tour to Aussie in 2001, and them asking me how NZ let Henry go, they thought he was great.
I've heard that too. His legacy was far more than simply coaching the national team and been told he was heavily involved in re-structuring the game in Wales.
As an aside, my Welsh mate's wife was an Assistant Headteacher and went to talk by Henry on education & extra-curricular activities. She said it was poss. the best lecture she'd ever been to and he was clearly top of tree on education thinking.
Looking in from the outside I'd say one of the biggest successes he had with Wales (aside from the re-structure - jury still out I'd say), was how he instilled belief in the national squad.
And convincing Kiwi players they were eligible to play for Wales if their ancestors had once shagged a girl called Bronwyn.....
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@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
I always remember talking to a load of Welshmen during Lions tour to Aussie in 2001, and them asking me how NZ let Henry go, they thought he was great.
I've heard that too. His legacy was far more than simply coaching the national team and been told he was heavily involved in re-structuring the game in Wales.
As an aside, my Welsh mate's wife was an Assistant Headteacher and went to talk by Henry on education & extra-curricular activities. She said it was poss. the best lecture she'd ever been to and he was clearly top of tree on education thinking.
Yep Vic my daughter went to some safety education thing or something he spoke at a couple of years back and said he was most enlightening, and entertaining as he got message across.
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@catogrande said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@machpants said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
IIRC, Gatland wasn't all that rated by many Welsh fans up to 2017 with his style of play being derided as "Warrenball", but he won 4 6N's has been relatively successful with the Lions.
Now he's full-time with the Chiefs we'll be able to see how good he is in SR and how he goes with the team over the next year.
Harsh, he is by far the most sucessful Lions coach ever!
Cough. Cough. Sir Ian McGeechan?
Nope lost too NZ, hardest tour to win. Garland got a draw, otherwise results equal, 50-50
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@machpants said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@catogrande said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@machpants said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
IIRC, Gatland wasn't all that rated by many Welsh fans up to 2017 with his style of play being derided as "Warrenball", but he won 4 6N's has been relatively successful with the Lions.
Now he's full-time with the Chiefs we'll be able to see how good he is in SR and how he goes with the team over the next year.
Harsh, he is by far the most sucessful Lions coach ever!
Cough. Cough. Sir Ian McGeechan?
Nope lost too NZ, hardest tour to win. Garland got a draw, otherwise results equal, 50-50
I'd say his two Lions tours wins puts him ahead of Gatland's one. A counter argument would say that they both have a 50% winning record, either way it kinda disproves an assertion that Gatland was "by far the most successful Lions coach ever".
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@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
It has been same for as long as I have watched rugby, with maybe the only real new team was the baby Blacks where most of preferred team was stood down.
1974 The AB selectors named a squad of 24 to tour Australia that featured 15 debutants including the captain Andy Leslie and a new coach in JJ Stewart
this after a 1973 season where NZ played five matches, all at home - losing to NZ Juniors, NZ presidents 15 and an England team that was labelled the worst to tour NZ having lost all their lead up games (Taranaki, Wellington, Canterbury) and having only beaten Fiji by one point en route to NZ.
Lets trust things never get that bad again
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
It has been same for as long as I have watched rugby, with maybe the only real new team was the baby Blacks where most of preferred team was stood down.
1974 The AB selectors named a squad of 24 to tour Australia that featured 15 debutants including the captain Andy Leslie and a new coach in JJ Stewart
this after a 1973 season where NZ played five matches, all at home - losing to NZ Juniors, NZ presidents 15 and an England team that was labelled the worst to tour NZ having lost all their lead up games (Taranaki, Wellington, Canterbury) and having only beaten Fiji by one point en route to NZ.
Lets trust things never get that bad again
Ok I will pay that mate. I forgot about old days when the coaches had that much fun with selection, hell I remember being like everyone (including ABs themselves) thought they only had to turn up to win against Juniors. AB s got together 3 days before game, and seem to recall a write up before Juniors game that they didn't even train properly. That was in days when Juniors were under 23 I think, colts were under 21.
That's if I remember correctly. I think Poms were only home test we played that year, and basically no trials or anything , just basically picked from tourists to NH end of 72 early 73.. I think we beat Poms at England during that tour and drew with Irelnd and lost to French
Geez mate I was only18 when they were played -
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
It has been same for as long as I have watched rugby, with maybe the only real new team was the baby Blacks where most of preferred team was stood down.
1974 The AB selectors named a squad of 24 to tour Australia that featured 15 debutants including the captain Andy Leslie and a new coach in JJ Stewart
this after a 1973 season where NZ played five matches, all at home - losing to NZ Juniors, NZ presidents 15 and an England team that was labelled the worst to tour NZ having lost all their lead up games (Taranaki, Wellington, Canterbury) and having only beaten Fiji by one point en route to NZ.
Lets trust things never get that bad again
Think that was when JJ Stewart took over from Bob Duff. Duff's reign included a disastrous 72-73 NH tour which showed how far behind NZ rugby actually was.
JJ Stewart took over and thoroughly cleaned out the stables and halted the decline. There was also a concerted effort to provide a development path for players with tours to Argentine etc which provided players like Mourie, Wilson and Haden. Looking back, he did a real good job but it was a shit time to be an AB supporter.
Oh, and I recall Duff being touted as the Canterbury "wonder coach" who would restore AB fortunes after the '70 & '71 Test series defeats as everything else was good in the NZ garden. Sound familiar?
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Disastrous 72-73 NH tour? Test match record of P5, W3, D1, L1.
High expectations I guess 🙄
Edit: Wiki has Bob Duff as only assistant manager. Ernie Todd as manager.
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@catogrande said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
Disastrous 72-73 NH tour? Test match record of P5, W3, D1, L1.
High expectations I guess
Murdoch incident and other sundry disasters. Manager was Ernie Todd who was ill and should never have been given the job.
🙄Edit: Wiki has Bob Duff as only assistant manager.
Think that was what they called the coach in them days
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Ah. I see. Wiki only has the bare facts.
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@catogrande said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
Ah. I see. Wiki only has the bare facts.
Believe it or not, the word "coach" was associated with professionalism for quite some time.
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@catogrande Disastrous because as @Victor-Meldrew said the Murdoch affair, the culture of the team but above all the results.
The test side was not too bad and came within minutes of redeeming the whole tour if they had beaten Ireland and thus become the first NZ side to complete the Grand Slam. Instead they lost to Llanelli (remember learning about it when I got on bus to school 'we lost to a bloody Welsh village" ) North west Counties, Midland Counties, and drew with Munster before Tom Grace scored in the last minute for Ireland (Spike Milligan wrote By Jesus By Grace we are saved). If the touchline conversion had gone over we would have lost as it ended the game.
We were then schooled by the Baabaas and went on to France which no one wanted to do and lost in Paris.
So an unhappy touring party with a back seat of the bus who had a serious attitude and apparently were a bunch of bullies. In the main played boring 9 man rugby despite having some really talented backs. Grant Batty was the emerging star scoring what seemed like half our trys.
P32 W25 D2 L5 is really not good enough for an All Black side.Remember it like it was yesterday - getting up in the middle of the night to watch B&W live coverage from the Northern hemisphere for the first time ever. TBH probably remember it better than I do last years tests! .
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
In the main played boring 9 man rugby despite having some really talented backs.
Yep. Players like Ian Stevens and Mark Sayers had become converts to Carwyn James rugby philosophy and their form meant they really couldn't be left out of the touring squad. But they were criminally treated by Bob Duff and the management - almost as if they wanted to prove the playing revolution the '71 Lions brought to NZ was a type of heresy.
Grant Batty was the emerging star scoring what seemed like half our trys.
I still have his book somewhere. IIRC he was/is scathing about Ernie Todd, Bob Duff, Welsh Rugby and Senior AB players (Wylie, Kirkpatrick, etc) in reverse order. One of my favourite AB's, Batty made JPR Williams look stupid on defence in that Baa Baa's game - which is possibly the highest accolade a player can get.
EDIT: Getting confused about the thread title - seems to have morphed from "Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc" to "Old AB Tours" and back again. Either I'm pissed or the mods are...
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Twas on a dark and dismal day in a week that had seen rain,
When all roads led to Stradey Park with the All Blacks here again,
they poured down from the valleys, they came from far and wide,
There were 50,000 in the ground and me and Dai outside.The shops were closed like Sunday and the streets were silent still,
And those who chose to stay away were either dead or ill,
But those who went to Stradey park will remember till they die,
How New Zealand Were defeated and how the pubs ran dry.Oh the beer flowed at Stradey, piped down from Felinfoel,
And the hands that held the glasses high were strong from steel and coal,
the air was filled with singing and I heard a grown man cry,
Not because we'd won but because the pubs ran dry.Then dawned the morning after, on empty factories,
For we were still at Stradey, bloodshot absentees,
But we all had doctors papers and they all said just the same,
that we all had Scarlet fever and we caught it at the game.Now all the little babies in Llanelli from now on,
Will be Christened Roy or Carwyn, Derek, Delme, Phil or John,
And in a hundred years from now they'll sing a song for me,
About that day the scoreboard read Llanelli 9- Seland Newydd 3.And when I grow old, my hair turns grey and they put me in a chair,
I'll tell my great grandchildren that their Datcu was there.
And they'll ask to hear the story of that dark October day,
When I went down to Stradey park and I saw the Scarlets play.Max Boyce
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@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
Best mate still likes to tell me he was at the Llanelli game. Says still one of highlight of rugby watching career.
Sean Fitzpatrick once said he'd never meet a Welshman under 60 who wasn't at Cardiff Arms Park in 1953.
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@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
Best mate still likes to tell me he was at the Llanelli game. Says still one of highlight of rugby watching career.
Every man in Wales was at that game. Even those not then born.
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@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
Best mate still likes to tell me he was at the Llanelli game. Says still one of highlight of rugby watching career.
Sean Fitzpatrick once said he'd never meet a Welshman under 60 who wasn't at Cardiff Arms Park in 1953.
Yep, only trouble with that theory, is mate 67, and got a team photo of boys from his team at game. I will pass on message that he's considered a fraud though!! I sure he won't care what people he doesn't know who post anonimously think .
Actually one thing with mate, like me he actually goes to a hell of a lot of rugby, unlike me he doesn't post on forums. Him and I are such desperates we arranged a holiday to Wales a couple of years back , so we could do club rugby in and around Wales. Unfortunately on way we stopped in Italy where my son lived and a nameless person slipped on ice and broke his ankle and had to head home
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@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
Best mate still likes to tell me he was at the Llanelli game. Says still one of highlight of rugby watching career.
Sean Fitzpatrick once said he'd never meet a Welshman under 60 who wasn't at Cardiff Arms Park in 1953.
Yep, only trouble with that theory, is mate 67, and got a team photo of boys from his team at game. I will pass on message that he's considered a fraud though!! I sure he won't care what people he doesn't know who post anonimously think .
Actually one thing with mate, like me he actually goes to a hell of a lot of rugby, unlike me he doesn't post on forums. Him and I are such desperates we arranged a holiday to Wales a couple of years back , so we could do club rugby in and around Wales. Unfortunately on way we stopped in Italy where my son lived and a nameless person slipped on ice and broke his ankle and had to head homeThoroughly recommend this book. Gives bios of the players and the game to frame the growth of Rugby in Wales and NZ.
Dragons and All Blacks: Wales v. New Zealand - 1953 and a Century of Rivalry eBook : Richards, Huw: Amazon.co.uk: Books