Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@bovidae said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
I've always been bemused about the term "Warrenball" because there are plenty of examples of teams he has coached that played expansive rugby. Wasps and Waikato being two. Maybe he was more pragmatic at international level but I don't think that Wales have changed too much since he left. So it is now Pivacball?
IMO really good coaches have an ability to see the way rugby should be played, but pragmatic enough to adopt the best way for the talent at hand.
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@hooroo said in All Blacks 2022:
The good thing about the next AB coach is it will be his own success without argument.
Henry took over a successful Mitch Squad, Hansen over Henry and then Fozzie sucked the Kumara. The new coach will get to build from Scratch again and make it theres.
Almost every coach brings in own players and so really makes team his own, Henry had a few of Mitchell's, same as Hansen and Foster. It will be same with next coach who will have a decent amount of present players. It has been same for as long as I have watched rugby, with maybe the only real new team was the baby Blacks where most of preferred team was stood down.
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@antipodean And I thought that's what Gatland did with Wales.
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@machpants said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
Harsh, he is by far the most sucessful Lions coach ever!
I'm so old I go back to Syd Millar and Carwyn James...
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@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
I always remember talking to a load of Welshmen during Lions tour to Aussie in 2001, and them asking me how NZ let Henry go, they thought he was great.
I've heard that too. His legacy was far more than simply coaching the national team and been told he was heavily involved in re-structuring the game in Wales.
As an aside, my Welsh mate's wife was an Assistant Headteacher and went to talk by Henry on education & extra-curricular activities. She said it was poss. the best lecture she'd ever been to and he was clearly top of tree on education thinking.
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@machpants said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
IIRC, Gatland wasn't all that rated by many Welsh fans up to 2017 with his style of play being derided as "Warrenball", but he won 4 6N's has been relatively successful with the Lions.
Now he's full-time with the Chiefs we'll be able to see how good he is in SR and how he goes with the team over the next year.
Harsh, he is by far the most sucessful Lions coach ever!
Cough. Cough. Sir Ian McGeechan?
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@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
I always remember talking to a load of Welshmen during Lions tour to Aussie in 2001, and them asking me how NZ let Henry go, they thought he was great.
I've heard that too. His legacy was far more than simply coaching the national team and been told he was heavily involved in re-structuring the game in Wales.
As an aside, my Welsh mate's wife was an Assistant Headteacher and went to talk by Henry on education & extra-curricular activities. She said it was poss. the best lecture she'd ever been to and he was clearly top of tree on education thinking.
Looking in from the outside I'd say one of the biggest successes he had with Wales (aside from the re-structure - jury still out I'd say), was how he instilled belief in the national squad. His biggest mistake for me was taking on the Lions job in 2001 where I feel he lost that belief by overlooking many Welsh players. Gatland didn't make that mistake.
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@catogrande said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
I always remember talking to a load of Welshmen during Lions tour to Aussie in 2001, and them asking me how NZ let Henry go, they thought he was great.
I've heard that too. His legacy was far more than simply coaching the national team and been told he was heavily involved in re-structuring the game in Wales.
As an aside, my Welsh mate's wife was an Assistant Headteacher and went to talk by Henry on education & extra-curricular activities. She said it was poss. the best lecture she'd ever been to and he was clearly top of tree on education thinking.
Looking in from the outside I'd say one of the biggest successes he had with Wales (aside from the re-structure - jury still out I'd say), was how he instilled belief in the national squad.
And convincing Kiwi players they were eligible to play for Wales if their ancestors had once shagged a girl called Bronwyn.....
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@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
I always remember talking to a load of Welshmen during Lions tour to Aussie in 2001, and them asking me how NZ let Henry go, they thought he was great.
I've heard that too. His legacy was far more than simply coaching the national team and been told he was heavily involved in re-structuring the game in Wales.
As an aside, my Welsh mate's wife was an Assistant Headteacher and went to talk by Henry on education & extra-curricular activities. She said it was poss. the best lecture she'd ever been to and he was clearly top of tree on education thinking.
Yep Vic my daughter went to some safety education thing or something he spoke at a couple of years back and said he was most enlightening, and entertaining as he got message across.
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@catogrande said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@machpants said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
IIRC, Gatland wasn't all that rated by many Welsh fans up to 2017 with his style of play being derided as "Warrenball", but he won 4 6N's has been relatively successful with the Lions.
Now he's full-time with the Chiefs we'll be able to see how good he is in SR and how he goes with the team over the next year.
Harsh, he is by far the most sucessful Lions coach ever!
Cough. Cough. Sir Ian McGeechan?
Nope lost too NZ, hardest tour to win. Garland got a draw, otherwise results equal, 50-50
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@machpants said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@catogrande said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@machpants said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@victor-meldrew said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2022:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2022:
@bones said in All Blacks 2022:
@dagrubster said in All Blacks 2022:
our leading most experienced coaches are not in NZ.
It's an easy thing to say, but how about some names? Jamie Joseph I think could be handy.....who else?
Schmidt is already in. Gatland?
The more involvement he has the worse the Chiefs are. When MacMillan has been in charge they look a much better team. Maybe his NH style doesn't work for our players?
IIRC, Gatland wasn't all that rated by many Welsh fans up to 2017 with his style of play being derided as "Warrenball", but he won 4 6N's has been relatively successful with the Lions.
Now he's full-time with the Chiefs we'll be able to see how good he is in SR and how he goes with the team over the next year.
Harsh, he is by far the most sucessful Lions coach ever!
Cough. Cough. Sir Ian McGeechan?
Nope lost too NZ, hardest tour to win. Garland got a draw, otherwise results equal, 50-50
I'd say his two Lions tours wins puts him ahead of Gatland's one. A counter argument would say that they both have a 50% winning record, either way it kinda disproves an assertion that Gatland was "by far the most successful Lions coach ever".
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@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
It has been same for as long as I have watched rugby, with maybe the only real new team was the baby Blacks where most of preferred team was stood down.
1974 The AB selectors named a squad of 24 to tour Australia that featured 15 debutants including the captain Andy Leslie and a new coach in JJ Stewart
this after a 1973 season where NZ played five matches, all at home - losing to NZ Juniors, NZ presidents 15 and an England team that was labelled the worst to tour NZ having lost all their lead up games (Taranaki, Wellington, Canterbury) and having only beaten Fiji by one point en route to NZ.
Lets trust things never get that bad again
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
It has been same for as long as I have watched rugby, with maybe the only real new team was the baby Blacks where most of preferred team was stood down.
1974 The AB selectors named a squad of 24 to tour Australia that featured 15 debutants including the captain Andy Leslie and a new coach in JJ Stewart
this after a 1973 season where NZ played five matches, all at home - losing to NZ Juniors, NZ presidents 15 and an England team that was labelled the worst to tour NZ having lost all their lead up games (Taranaki, Wellington, Canterbury) and having only beaten Fiji by one point en route to NZ.
Lets trust things never get that bad again
Ok I will pay that mate. I forgot about old days when the coaches had that much fun with selection, hell I remember being like everyone (including ABs themselves) thought they only had to turn up to win against Juniors. AB s got together 3 days before game, and seem to recall a write up before Juniors game that they didn't even train properly. That was in days when Juniors were under 23 I think, colts were under 21.
That's if I remember correctly. I think Poms were only home test we played that year, and basically no trials or anything , just basically picked from tourists to NH end of 72 early 73.. I think we beat Poms at England during that tour and drew with Irelnd and lost to French
Geez mate I was only18 when they were played -
@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
@dan54 said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
It has been same for as long as I have watched rugby, with maybe the only real new team was the baby Blacks where most of preferred team was stood down.
1974 The AB selectors named a squad of 24 to tour Australia that featured 15 debutants including the captain Andy Leslie and a new coach in JJ Stewart
this after a 1973 season where NZ played five matches, all at home - losing to NZ Juniors, NZ presidents 15 and an England team that was labelled the worst to tour NZ having lost all their lead up games (Taranaki, Wellington, Canterbury) and having only beaten Fiji by one point en route to NZ.
Lets trust things never get that bad again
Think that was when JJ Stewart took over from Bob Duff. Duff's reign included a disastrous 72-73 NH tour which showed how far behind NZ rugby actually was.
JJ Stewart took over and thoroughly cleaned out the stables and halted the decline. There was also a concerted effort to provide a development path for players with tours to Argentine etc which provided players like Mourie, Wilson and Haden. Looking back, he did a real good job but it was a shit time to be an AB supporter.
Oh, and I recall Duff being touted as the Canterbury "wonder coach" who would restore AB fortunes after the '70 & '71 Test series defeats as everything else was good in the NZ garden. Sound familiar?
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Disastrous 72-73 NH tour? Test match record of P5, W3, D1, L1.
High expectations I guess 🙄
Edit: Wiki has Bob Duff as only assistant manager. Ernie Todd as manager.
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@catogrande said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
Disastrous 72-73 NH tour? Test match record of P5, W3, D1, L1.
High expectations I guess
Murdoch incident and other sundry disasters. Manager was Ernie Todd who was ill and should never have been given the job.
🙄Edit: Wiki has Bob Duff as only assistant manager.
Think that was what they called the coach in them days
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Ah. I see. Wiki only has the bare facts.
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@catogrande said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
Ah. I see. Wiki only has the bare facts.
Believe it or not, the word "coach" was associated with professionalism for quite some time.
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@catogrande Disastrous because as @Victor-Meldrew said the Murdoch affair, the culture of the team but above all the results.
The test side was not too bad and came within minutes of redeeming the whole tour if they had beaten Ireland and thus become the first NZ side to complete the Grand Slam. Instead they lost to Llanelli (remember learning about it when I got on bus to school 'we lost to a bloody Welsh village" ) North west Counties, Midland Counties, and drew with Munster before Tom Grace scored in the last minute for Ireland (Spike Milligan wrote By Jesus By Grace we are saved). If the touchline conversion had gone over we would have lost as it ended the game.
We were then schooled by the Baabaas and went on to France which no one wanted to do and lost in Paris.
So an unhappy touring party with a back seat of the bus who had a serious attitude and apparently were a bunch of bullies. In the main played boring 9 man rugby despite having some really talented backs. Grant Batty was the emerging star scoring what seemed like half our trys.
P32 W25 D2 L5 is really not good enough for an All Black side.Remember it like it was yesterday - getting up in the middle of the night to watch B&W live coverage from the Northern hemisphere for the first time ever. TBH probably remember it better than I do last years tests! .
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@dogmeat said in Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc:
In the main played boring 9 man rugby despite having some really talented backs.
Yep. Players like Ian Stevens and Mark Sayers had become converts to Carwyn James rugby philosophy and their form meant they really couldn't be left out of the touring squad. But they were criminally treated by Bob Duff and the management - almost as if they wanted to prove the playing revolution the '71 Lions brought to NZ was a type of heresy.
Grant Batty was the emerging star scoring what seemed like half our trys.
I still have his book somewhere. IIRC he was/is scathing about Ernie Todd, Bob Duff, Welsh Rugby and Senior AB players (Wylie, Kirkpatrick, etc) in reverse order. One of my favourite AB's, Batty made JPR Williams look stupid on defence in that Baa Baa's game - which is possibly the highest accolade a player can get.
EDIT: Getting confused about the thread title - seems to have morphed from "Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc" to "Old AB Tours" and back again. Either I'm pissed or the mods are...
