Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Laumape is definitely not the answer. He has never impressed at test level. Got his arse handed to him by an average Aussie midfield in Brisbane last year.
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@cgrant
Anyone who thinks you can parachute a player into this environment and change the team performance is delusional. We already have quality players underperforming.We had the chance to at least try for a Rassie style turnaround but opted for a guy with a 50% win rate as a super rugby coach (who was replaced by a guy who won it in his first year with many of the same players).
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@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Ngatai was always better the less he played according to fern wisdom.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
It's often the case that the Deputy in an organisation can be exceptional and absolutely essential to success - but absolutely stink as the leader
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
The poor performance we are seeing from this current lot isn't just down to Foster. You sense there are much deeper problems in both the NZRFU and rugby at the higher levels.
I disagree, except that theinnate conservatism off NZR to stick with foster means it's NZR problem. In addition the way they left the coach decision so late meant potentials took guaranteed jobs elsewhere. Also NZR bring unable to admit they're wrong, that's high level.
But foster is just Hansen light, and Hansen was find out from 17 on, and nothing has changed. It's not a NZ deep and dark problem, the players showed that by almost winning against Ireland despite the f coach and out of date game plan. A change of coaching team now would be enough for the ABs to hit the RWC with a good chance of winning. But foster cannot change or learn, so we're fucked until there is a change.
I think there are serious problems in NZ Rugby. It's around player development, succession planning for key positions, retaining good coaching expertise and ensuring continuity in AB management without developing staleness (which we've seen since 2016/7).
Yes, we almost won in Dublin but when under pressure, experienced players screwed up as we've seen in too many games since 2017, or arguably 2016, by making stupid errors and losing discipline. That's hardly all down to Foster - though there are some who suggest he's personally responsible for all the AB ills since he joined the cartel, as though he's some evil genius.
I worry that just simply changing the coach will only paper over the cracks for a short period. Sure, you'll get an improvement straight away due to the change (Hawthorn effect) but there's no guarantee that will last at Test level.
You are blinded by your Love for Foster,
How do we know if we don’t change , All we know it what we have now which is poor.
By your reckoning Foster should have the job forever no matter what his record of success is,because you are scared of change.
In case in doesn’t work.That's a ridiculous comment to make, as Machpants said if you look at our rugby being played even at super level, the skill level of our players in general has seemingly dropped in last few years. We have won many tests just by using sublime skills etc over the years, and we don't seem to have quite that about our players at moment. And that not saying Foster should be coach etc, just need to look at how our teams have played below test level, remember a few years back when almost any NZ team could launch an attack down the blindside with only 5 mtere to work with and still beat defence with a pass?
Also we have to look , we all cutting our wrists with how bad things are, tell me a test team in Tier 1 who has had less losses than ABs this year. Hell Wallabies just finished autumn series without a win for 43 years!!!Boks have dropped 5 teats this year, France 5 etc etc.
I not saying we don't have problems but I still think there no quick fix, and not sure they bad as we think!Could it also be that our best super rugby coaches get plum jobs overseas?
Could well be too, not sure how we will stop that, I know we can say give them AB jobs, but there is only one HC job there, and do super coaches always make great test coaches? Who won the last 2 World cups and how many super titles did their coaches win as coach? Look at Shmidt, was pretty ordinary with Blues as coach and yet seemed a good test coach with Ireland. Robbie Deans, seemed pretty good coaching Crusaders, ask a lot of Wallaby supporters what they think of him as test coach.
I not sure how we can keep good coaches at super , when there big money up north etc, but would like to see maore of them stick around longer. -
@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Luatua also the legend has grown. Can’t recall a single AB game where he was a standout. But apparently he would waltz back in and sort out our issues.
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@mn5 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Ngatai was always better the less he played according to fern wisdom.
About as rare as a George Bridge side-step.....
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
No that's not what I'm saying.
What i'm saying is - there's the potential (or risk) that the new coach is going to have just as bad a run of results as Foster. I'd rather take that risk than stick with Foster.
And you'd want him sacked immediately if he was as bad as Foster after just under 2 years, right?
Wouldn't it be better to look at reducing the underlying causes of those risks and increasing the potential for success now than after a couple of years when we might have to sack the coach (again)?
It's not an either/or or a mutually exclusive situation. Why not do both?
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@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Luatua also the legend has grown. Can’t recall a single AB game where he was a standout. But apparently he would waltz back in and sort out our issues.
Thing is, our weaknesses in 2019 were primarily 6 and right wing.
Luatua and Piutau would have been a big step on on the people we selected (ScoBa, FFS). Singlehandedly win? nope. Patch some key areas of weakness? Hell yes.As to your direct and challenging questions on win rates and sackings, it's more than just numbers. They key is that we got a continuity appointment, and little has changed; the same weaknesses are there, and arguably more glaring than ever as the rest of the rugby world has lifted. No it's not entirely Foster's fault that he gets limited players out of Super nowadays.
However, I don't think he is the right coach for the team based on the last two years, and the two yeasr before that. We need to reinvent ourselves, and I'm not sure he's the bloke to do it. Jesus Chrobertson isn't necessarily the saviour either, but he'd have more of a chance than
Robertsonedit: Foster.So, if after 2 years we had a coach who had the same win/loss, and wasn't changing the style or selections in response, then yep, I reckon there'd be an agrument to move them on. What really shits me is the 'sack the coach' discussion shouldn't be that - it should be 'has Foster done enough to extend his contract?'.
NZR dropped the ball badly on this one, and a number of people called it at the time. The appointment process was shit (didn't get the best candidates), the extension was abysmal timing, and frankly we're reaping the results of it now.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's not an either/or or a mutually exclusive situation
Yet arguing that simply sacking Foster will fix the current issues is exactly that
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's not an either/or or a mutually exclusive situation
Yet arguing that simply sacking Foster will fix the current issues is exactly that
So do both.
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@billy-tell said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Luatua also the legend has grown. Can’t recall a single AB game where he was a standout. But apparently he would waltz back in and sort out our issues.
He had one good season, highlights being absolutely monstering people in the tackle. He's continued to improve up north.
Certainly worth keeping in our system and working with. It was the beginning of Hanson burning bridges (shaming him for his fitness publicly), ending up with him lying to the media and Luatua had to come out and correct the record (that he had spoken to them before leaving).
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Good interview with Steve Devine. Unlike some of our ex players who are nothing more than AB cheerleaders, he calls it the way it is. Very critical of Fozzie.
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@akan004 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
Good interview with Steve Devine. Unlike some of our ex players who are nothing more than AB cheerleaders, he calls it the way it is. Very critical of Fozzie.
“I haven’t seen any progress”: Devine worried about All Blacks under Foster
Back-to-back defeats in Europe.
“I wasn’t exactly joyous about his coaching,” says Devine. “It was quite loose and unorganized as nobody really knew their role. I look at the team now and it’s exactly what I'm seeing.”that sounds familiar.
I thought about it and I decided we can give him some slack.
SA and Australia are also wilting a little and I think COVID/the tour is having an effect.
But the game plan is not changing, adjusting and some players are actually going backwards. I don't believe this isn't just the effect of COVID, touring, quarantine etc.
Rather than test new players as a matter of choice we do so as a matter of emergency. And the same winning strategy against us has become a go to by the competitors. -
@nostrildamus I can understand the fatigue factor and will cut them a bit of slack for that, but it doesn't excuse the fact that they are still running the same playbook from a few years ago. It doesn't excuse the fact that our defensive linespeed is so passive and it doesn't excuse the fact that they are continuously selecting players who are only SR level players like Havilli, DMac, Angus T, Bridge etc and hoping that they will somehow develop into quality test players when they clearly won't.
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You gotta hope the end of year review has significant outside input, as Foster and his crew (and possibly the players) think they are on the right track. I gave the benefit of the doubt in the lead up to the RWC, but that has long gone. All the Coived shit doesn’t help, but it doesn;t help any team - pathetic excuse. There is no progress, only stagnation. Sadly we won’t see him getting fired, but fuck me it is what is needed
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Regardless of public opinion changes will only come from NZRU after the review of this season.
It has been mentioned in an article (Hinton?) that there are quite robust 360 degree feedback sessions done and what we aren't party to are the KPIs in his contract or how the contract is structured.
The biggest problem is the complication of COVID and the performances being at the end of a very long tour where team personnel had to be juggled all the time. This will be in the list of 'reasons' behind the idea that the team was flat not that the strategies are wrong.
Player feedback will likely be positive regarding the environment. By most accounts Foster has been very good at managing the team environment and personal side of things, keeping the players happy and looked after. What will be interesting is if/when the players are asked if they believe that the coaches have them performing at their best and/or if they trust that they are on the right path. If the players don't believe in the coaches you are on a hiding to nothing. The best way to build belief in the coaches is for the plans to work and wins on the board. Problem is that these players have been brought up to be fully accountable for their own performances so they will likely take the blame themselves.
Should the feedback be that the players have lost some belief then it is obvious that a new voice is needed and I believe that NZRU will lean on Foster to do the right thing. He will have the option to fall on his sword with dignity and do the right thing for the team. If he feels the wind change I think he is honorable enough to do that without waiting for the review to complete.
I don't think he will be stubborn and dig his toes in but if the players take the blame, the COVID factors are seen as an understandable complication and the players say they have faith in the long term plan then he will still be there until the RWC.
The only other factor is that the right replacement team needs to be ready and available with a good obvious plan to rejig the playing style to cope with where the NH teams have gone. Razor would be the obvious choice as he is contracted and in place waiting. Does he have plans to counter the defences? I don't know. Does he have a different style up his sleeve for test rugby? If the ABs play like the Crusaders then that doesn't solve our problems. Even having Gatland involved won't bring the innovative thinking that we need.
Someone mentioned that we keep kicking the ball away, and we do.Kicking is one way to keep the rush D thinking but it has to be accurate kicks that provide opportunity for us to create pressure. Rugby 101 says to pop the ball into spaces behind the defence and have them turn and scramble with the forwards being made to run back. Put pressure on a few times and the rush D will be hesitant. You then control the game more. Our trouble is that we don't have a 10 that executes this skill very well and our 9s are taught to box kick endlessly.
Waffle waffle waffle .......and we pay flat footed! Why does no one ever steam onto the ball? And why are our backs running lines so predictable? Bodies in motion is what we need badly
Now breath.
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@akan004 said in Foster, Robertson, Other Options etc:
@nostrildamus I can understand the fatigue factor and will cut them a bit of slack for that, but it doesn't excuse the fact that they are running the same playbook from a few years ago. It doesn't excuse the fact that our defensive linespeed is so passive and it doesn't excuse the fact that they are continuously selecting players who are only SR level players like Havilli, DMac, Angus T, Bridge etc and hoping that they will somehow develop into quality test players when they clearly won't.
its so weird, im on another rugby forum thats more NH focused and they talk about DMac and BB in the same breath as DC....its really unnerving
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Interesting to read the comments and where people are talking up or down a player. My two questions are:
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How many different 9-10-12-13 combinations you used this year in 15 tests where injury was NOT a factor. If then answer is in double figures, well how the fuck is anyone meant to settle into that and make a team look good?
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Is the AB game plan on attack anything different to "Let's all stand wide and just beat someone eventually and rely on natural skill to score tries because NZ rugby uz choice bro!". Fuck it looks good when it works, but not when you're getting tackled repeatedly behind the A-line.
You know what? Just recycle my last long-winded post about poor tactics and coaching and dry powder etc.
The AB pack looked good on the weekend just after halftime when they finally realised giving it to the backs was only going to end up in a shit show of rush defence nailing your regulation spacing with no subtlety. That youngish French pack was there for the taking, and their scramble defence was probably the only thing that saved them a few more blushes.
In short, if I was an AB fan I'd be saying: FUCK the backs - they'll get a turn later. But mostly: fuck your coaches. And fuck grey/white jerseys, while we're here.
Now, as an Aussie: please keep Foster and carry on like this through to ... well, forever?
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