Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked.And like Man U, we say that about the next coach (like Mourhino, with a great track record), and the one after that, and the one after that?
How many years of coach blamings and sackings do you think we need before we start asking if there's underlying problems to be addressed?
You make good points, but one thing I will say is that, because of the top-down nature of NZ rugby, the AB coach can often have a big say in the development at the lower levels of the game. Is it any coincidence that post-2004, we had a pipeline of good quality front rowers after GH had identified that as a work on? Or how after 2009, we had a generation of wingers and full backs who were all excellent under the high ball? It's because of the weaknesses in those areas identified by GH at the top level that coaches at all levels below that sought to develop the next generation that was strong in those areas.
I agree 100%.
What was the time-lag between GH saying we needed good props and getting them in '04. and the same for the wingers in '09?
Is the co-ordination between the NZRFU, AB coaching staff & lower levels working properly? Because unless it is working well, no change of coach will fix the problems
GH's found some solutions to his winger problem by the time the WC 2011 came around. By then, he'd changed a centre into a wing (Kahui), had recently unearthed a new wing (Jane) and a new fullback had burst onto the scene (Dagg). He identified what he wanted and either coached an existing player to suit his gameplan or promoted players with the attributes he wanted to see.
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@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
Agree with this. The team is capable of quality moments. They are just v inconsistent.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Razor has cleaned up in the SR over a long period of time.
Obviously clear game plans, good man management and eye for detail.
You heard the oft repeated phrase 'hasnt got international coaching experience'. This is rubbish.
Well now we've got mediocre results, losing to teams like never before, and the management have untold international experience.So what do we do if and/or when when Razor, like Mourhino with his great track record, doesn't turn out to be a messiah?
If Razor's win % isn't better than Foster's after 2 years, do we think we should sack him as well?
This sounds like the argument for not demoting Tana and replacing him with Leon.....
So if Razor (or another coach) produces results as bad as or worse that Foster's after 2 years, we just shrug our shoulders as he isn't called Ian Foster?
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
South Africa have been good for 3-4 years now. They are the ABs greatest foe and have never been scared to take them on.
The Oz and Argentina losses last year were the worst performances. ABs rectified those results by sweeping them this year.
Ireland and France are both strong right now. Especially at home in front of a vocal fanbase.
The key for me now will be if Ireland rock up next year and win a series. That would be unthinkable. Last team to beat NZ in a home test series (more than a one-off test)? France 94 no? Then again, some good came out of that series loss!!
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GH's found some solutions to his winger problem by the time the WC 2011 came around. By then, he'd changed a centre into a wing (Kahui), had recently unearthed a new wing (Jane) and a new fullback had burst onto the scene (Dagg). He identified what he wanted and either coached an existing player to suit his gameplan or promoted players with the attributes he wanted to see.
So a bit like Foster turning a fullback into a world-class wing (Jordan) and Caleb Clarke bursting onto the scene, before his injury, and coaching Akira to do what he wanted him to do......
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
Agree with this. The team is capable of quality moments. They are just v inconsistent.
It's been the same since 2017. The question is why.
Too much rugby? Team culture? Not enough playing under pressure in SR? Basic skills slipping? On-field leadership? Mental skills missing?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
GH's found some solutions to his winger problem by the time the WC 2011 came around. By then, he'd changed a centre into a wing (Kahui), had recently unearthed a new wing (Jane) and a new fullback had burst onto the scene (Dagg). He identified what he wanted and either coached an existing player to suit his gameplan or promoted players with the attributes he wanted to see.
So a bit like Foster turning a fullback into a world-class wing (Jordan) and Caleb Clarke bursting onto the scene, before his injury, and coaching Akira to do what he wanted him to do......
Yep. Foster hasn't been all bad.
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@tewaio In 2004 Henry came in and said "we need a revolution in how we play, like after the 68 Lions tour". We changed our forward play and everything else. Since 2015, Hansen and his descendants have been so arrogant about playing like we own the ball and don't have to adjust. It's infuriating.
That change after the '71 Lions loss took nearly a decade though.
In the ancient 70's the AB's went to shit very quickly after being unbeatable for 8 years (3 losses in that time) and losing a series in '71 to the Lions. Huge public clamour to sack the coach and get someone untainted by the past who would get a grip and restore the fortunes rather than look at what had gone wrong with AB rugby. Wiser heads were already looking at the state of the game and how it was being played and started to emulate the thinking of Carwyn James and other NH coaches - but were pretty much ignored by the conservative NZRFU and public.
They appointed a proven winner -Bob Duff (ironically from Canterbury). He presided for two years over a disastrous tour to Europe and a home loss to England (unthinkable at the time). He was replaced by another proven winner who was even worse at winning. Though he understood the need to change, it was pretty much forced on him in '77. The next coach was a new thinker who transformed the team and the ABs won their first NH Grand Slam ever in '78
It took nearly 7 years for the AB's to get back to winning ways, accept that rugby had to change and NZ rugby & public to move away from the "sack the coach as we should always win" mentality. Fuck it was an awful time for an NZ Rugby fan.
The pain was worth it, but could have been a heck of a lot less if there's been some actual thinking about problems across the piece and were a little more humble
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
Agree with this. The team is capable of quality moments. They are just v inconsistent.
It's been the same since 2017. The question is why.
Too much rugby? Team culture? Not enough playing under pressure in SR? Basic skills slipping? On-field leadership? Mental skills missing?
Answer - All of the above.
Who is teaching them the value of the jersey they wear? And the silver fern next to their hearts? It seemed like that was sadly lacking yesterday.
Its more than just that though. I think we need to play NH teams more often. I think we are too one-dimensional in our attack, out outlook and hell just about everything. We were beaten all ends up by Ireland and France - and by all accounts England would have wiped the floor with us too.
We need to get smarter and inject ome different ways of thinking, coaching and playing by 2023 FFS. -
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@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Laumape is definitely not the answer. He has never impressed at test level. Got his arse handed to him by an average Aussie midfield in Brisbane last year.
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@cgrant
Anyone who thinks you can parachute a player into this environment and change the team performance is delusional. We already have quality players underperforming.We had the chance to at least try for a Rassie style turnaround but opted for a guy with a 50% win rate as a super rugby coach (who was replaced by a guy who won it in his first year with many of the same players).
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@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Ngatai was always better the less he played according to fern wisdom.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@dan54 said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@machpants said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
It's also fair to say that Smith and Hansen are not muppets, and would not carry idiots in that environment for any length of time, let alone 9 years. He has a pedigree, he has excellent coaches who clearly rated him.
It's often the case that the Deputy in an organisation can be exceptional and absolutely essential to success - but absolutely stink as the leader
I just don't, didn't and feel the appointment process and then extension is an example of terrible governance.
The poor performance we are seeing from this current lot isn't just down to Foster. You sense there are much deeper problems in both the NZRFU and rugby at the higher levels.
I disagree, except that theinnate conservatism off NZR to stick with foster means it's NZR problem. In addition the way they left the coach decision so late meant potentials took guaranteed jobs elsewhere. Also NZR bring unable to admit they're wrong, that's high level.
But foster is just Hansen light, and Hansen was find out from 17 on, and nothing has changed. It's not a NZ deep and dark problem, the players showed that by almost winning against Ireland despite the f coach and out of date game plan. A change of coaching team now would be enough for the ABs to hit the RWC with a good chance of winning. But foster cannot change or learn, so we're fucked until there is a change.
I think there are serious problems in NZ Rugby. It's around player development, succession planning for key positions, retaining good coaching expertise and ensuring continuity in AB management without developing staleness (which we've seen since 2016/7).
Yes, we almost won in Dublin but when under pressure, experienced players screwed up as we've seen in too many games since 2017, or arguably 2016, by making stupid errors and losing discipline. That's hardly all down to Foster - though there are some who suggest he's personally responsible for all the AB ills since he joined the cartel, as though he's some evil genius.
I worry that just simply changing the coach will only paper over the cracks for a short period. Sure, you'll get an improvement straight away due to the change (Hawthorn effect) but there's no guarantee that will last at Test level.
You are blinded by your Love for Foster,
How do we know if we don’t change , All we know it what we have now which is poor.
By your reckoning Foster should have the job forever no matter what his record of success is,because you are scared of change.
In case in doesn’t work.That's a ridiculous comment to make, as Machpants said if you look at our rugby being played even at super level, the skill level of our players in general has seemingly dropped in last few years. We have won many tests just by using sublime skills etc over the years, and we don't seem to have quite that about our players at moment. And that not saying Foster should be coach etc, just need to look at how our teams have played below test level, remember a few years back when almost any NZ team could launch an attack down the blindside with only 5 mtere to work with and still beat defence with a pass?
Also we have to look , we all cutting our wrists with how bad things are, tell me a test team in Tier 1 who has had less losses than ABs this year. Hell Wallabies just finished autumn series without a win for 43 years!!!Boks have dropped 5 teats this year, France 5 etc etc.
I not saying we don't have problems but I still think there no quick fix, and not sure they bad as we think!Could it also be that our best super rugby coaches get plum jobs overseas?
Could well be too, not sure how we will stop that, I know we can say give them AB jobs, but there is only one HC job there, and do super coaches always make great test coaches? Who won the last 2 World cups and how many super titles did their coaches win as coach? Look at Shmidt, was pretty ordinary with Blues as coach and yet seemed a good test coach with Ireland. Robbie Deans, seemed pretty good coaching Crusaders, ask a lot of Wallaby supporters what they think of him as test coach.
I not sure how we can keep good coaches at super , when there big money up north etc, but would like to see maore of them stick around longer. -
@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Luatua also the legend has grown. Can’t recall a single AB game where he was a standout. But apparently he would waltz back in and sort out our issues.
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This post is deleted!
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@mn5 said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Ngatai was always better the less he played according to fern wisdom.
About as rare as a George Bridge side-step.....
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
No that's not what I'm saying.
What i'm saying is - there's the potential (or risk) that the new coach is going to have just as bad a run of results as Foster. I'd rather take that risk than stick with Foster.
And you'd want him sacked immediately if he was as bad as Foster after just under 2 years, right?
Wouldn't it be better to look at reducing the underlying causes of those risks and increasing the potential for success now than after a couple of years when we might have to sack the coach (again)?
It's not an either/or or a mutually exclusive situation. Why not do both?
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@billy-tell said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@cgrant said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Those who are citing Ngatai or Laumape as potential Jesuses have not watched them in the Top 14 this year. They have been meh at best.
Luatua also the legend has grown. Can’t recall a single AB game where he was a standout. But apparently he would waltz back in and sort out our issues.
Thing is, our weaknesses in 2019 were primarily 6 and right wing.
Luatua and Piutau would have been a big step on on the people we selected (ScoBa, FFS). Singlehandedly win? nope. Patch some key areas of weakness? Hell yes.As to your direct and challenging questions on win rates and sackings, it's more than just numbers. They key is that we got a continuity appointment, and little has changed; the same weaknesses are there, and arguably more glaring than ever as the rest of the rugby world has lifted. No it's not entirely Foster's fault that he gets limited players out of Super nowadays.
However, I don't think he is the right coach for the team based on the last two years, and the two yeasr before that. We need to reinvent ourselves, and I'm not sure he's the bloke to do it. Jesus Chrobertson isn't necessarily the saviour either, but he'd have more of a chance than
Robertsonedit: Foster.So, if after 2 years we had a coach who had the same win/loss, and wasn't changing the style or selections in response, then yep, I reckon there'd be an agrument to move them on. What really shits me is the 'sack the coach' discussion shouldn't be that - it should be 'has Foster done enough to extend his contract?'.
NZR dropped the ball badly on this one, and a number of people called it at the time. The appointment process was shit (didn't get the best candidates), the extension was abysmal timing, and frankly we're reaping the results of it now.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's not an either/or or a mutually exclusive situation
Yet arguing that simply sacking Foster will fix the current issues is exactly that
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's not an either/or or a mutually exclusive situation
Yet arguing that simply sacking Foster will fix the current issues is exactly that
So do both.
