Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
None of those are really KPI's. No measures
That JD is full of meaningless management consultant waffle. If that sort of meaningless, mindless stuff is doing the rounds in NZ Rugby, then no wonder we are fucked.
That is my point.
Although the AB coach one may be secret because it is so good. -
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
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@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
Absolutely. Been the same since 2016 - been banging on about that for ages
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
No that's not what I'm saying.
What i'm saying is - there's the potential (or risk) that the new coach is going to have just as bad a run of results as Foster. I'd rather take that risk than stick with Foster.
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@kiwimurph In other words it's time for someone else
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@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph In other words it's time for someone else
Yes. I fail to see the value in continuinty when continuity gets us the same results that we would expect any other candidate to deliver.
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@nostrildamus A lot of that is waffle. Coaching is about performances and winning. I hope part of the job expectation for the All Blacks Head Coach is to win lots of silverware and be very competitive indeed at World Cups.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
So you are saying the next coach should get automatically sacked if loses to these countries and loses two in neutral venues?
Sounds a bit formulaic to me and doesn't take into account underlying issues, but at least it's consistent.
Here's the thing. I'd rather swap coaches with the potential of getting the same results than carry on with the definition of insanity.
You'd be happy to keep a coach with just as bad a record as Foster after two years on the basis of "potential"?
Seriously?
No that's not what I'm saying.
What i'm saying is - there's the potential (or risk) that the new coach is going to have just as bad a run of results as Foster. I'd rather take that risk than stick with Foster.
And you'd want him sacked immediately if he was as bad as Foster after just under 2 years, right?
Wouldn't it be better to look at reducing the underlying causes of those risks and increasing the potential for success now than after a couple of years when we might have to sack the coach (again)?
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@sparky said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus A lot of that is waffle. Coaching is about performances and winning. I hope part of the job expectation for the All Blacks Head Coach is to win lots of silverware and be very competitive indeed at World Cups.
If Foster had a JD as meaningless at the one for the Pasifika coach, then I'd give swinging the axe a wee bit higher than Foster priority.
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@tim said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@tewaio In 2004 Henry came in and said "we need a revolution in how we play, like after the 68 Lions tour". We changed our forward play and everything else. Since 2015, Hansen and his descendants have been so arrogant about playing like we own the ball and don't have to adjust. It's infuriating.
Don't you mean the '71 Lions tour of NZ?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@mofitzy_ said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew
Not a quick fix but a necessary one. Ole & Foz = jobs for the boys, no track record to back it up, wheels fell off, sacked and should be sacked.And like Man U, we say that about the next coach (like Mourhino, with a great track record), and the one after that, and the one after that?
How many years of coach blamings and sackings do you think we need before we start asking if there's underlying problems to be addressed?
You make good points, but one thing I will say is that, because of the top-down nature of NZ rugby, the AB coach can often have a big say in the development at the lower levels of the game. Is it any coincidence that post-2004, we had a pipeline of good quality front rowers after GH had identified that as a work on? Or how after 2009, we had a generation of wingers and full backs who were all excellent under the high ball? It's because of the weaknesses in those areas identified by GH at the top level that coaches at all levels below that sought to develop the next generation that was strong in those areas.
I agree 100%.
What was the time-lag between GH saying we needed good props and getting them in '04. and the same for the wingers in '09?
Is the co-ordination between the NZRFU, AB coaching staff & lower levels working properly? Because unless it is working well, no change of coach will fix the problems
GH's found some solutions to his winger problem by the time the WC 2011 came around. By then, he'd changed a centre into a wing (Kahui), had recently unearthed a new wing (Jane) and a new fullback had burst onto the scene (Dagg). He identified what he wanted and either coached an existing player to suit his gameplan or promoted players with the attributes he wanted to see.
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@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
Agree with this. The team is capable of quality moments. They are just v inconsistent.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew Razor has cleaned up in the SR over a long period of time.
Obviously clear game plans, good man management and eye for detail.
You heard the oft repeated phrase 'hasnt got international coaching experience'. This is rubbish.
Well now we've got mediocre results, losing to teams like never before, and the management have untold international experience.So what do we do if and/or when when Razor, like Mourhino with his great track record, doesn't turn out to be a messiah?
If Razor's win % isn't better than Foster's after 2 years, do we think we should sack him as well?
This sounds like the argument for not demoting Tana and replacing him with Leon.....
So if Razor (or another coach) produces results as bad as or worse that Foster's after 2 years, we just shrug our shoulders as he isn't called Ian Foster?
It's a pretty fucking low bar Foster has set. In two years he has lost to Aus, Argie, South Africa, Ireland, France. Two of those losses in neutral venues.
South Africa have been good for 3-4 years now. They are the ABs greatest foe and have never been scared to take them on.
The Oz and Argentina losses last year were the worst performances. ABs rectified those results by sweeping them this year.
Ireland and France are both strong right now. Especially at home in front of a vocal fanbase.
The key for me now will be if Ireland rock up next year and win a series. That would be unthinkable. Last team to beat NZ in a home test series (more than a one-off test)? France 94 no? Then again, some good came out of that series loss!!
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GH's found some solutions to his winger problem by the time the WC 2011 came around. By then, he'd changed a centre into a wing (Kahui), had recently unearthed a new wing (Jane) and a new fullback had burst onto the scene (Dagg). He identified what he wanted and either coached an existing player to suit his gameplan or promoted players with the attributes he wanted to see.
So a bit like Foster turning a fullback into a world-class wing (Jordan) and Caleb Clarke bursting onto the scene, before his injury, and coaching Akira to do what he wanted him to do......
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@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
Agree with this. The team is capable of quality moments. They are just v inconsistent.
It's been the same since 2017. The question is why.
Too much rugby? Team culture? Not enough playing under pressure in SR? Basic skills slipping? On-field leadership? Mental skills missing?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
GH's found some solutions to his winger problem by the time the WC 2011 came around. By then, he'd changed a centre into a wing (Kahui), had recently unearthed a new wing (Jane) and a new fullback had burst onto the scene (Dagg). He identified what he wanted and either coached an existing player to suit his gameplan or promoted players with the attributes he wanted to see.
So a bit like Foster turning a fullback into a world-class wing (Jordan) and Caleb Clarke bursting onto the scene, before his injury, and coaching Akira to do what he wanted him to do......
Yep. Foster hasn't been all bad.
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@tewaio In 2004 Henry came in and said "we need a revolution in how we play, like after the 68 Lions tour". We changed our forward play and everything else. Since 2015, Hansen and his descendants have been so arrogant about playing like we own the ball and don't have to adjust. It's infuriating.
That change after the '71 Lions loss took nearly a decade though.
In the ancient 70's the AB's went to shit very quickly after being unbeatable for 8 years (3 losses in that time) and losing a series in '71 to the Lions. Huge public clamour to sack the coach and get someone untainted by the past who would get a grip and restore the fortunes rather than look at what had gone wrong with AB rugby. Wiser heads were already looking at the state of the game and how it was being played and started to emulate the thinking of Carwyn James and other NH coaches - but were pretty much ignored by the conservative NZRFU and public.
They appointed a proven winner -Bob Duff (ironically from Canterbury). He presided for two years over a disastrous tour to Europe and a home loss to England (unthinkable at the time). He was replaced by another proven winner who was even worse at winning. Though he understood the need to change, it was pretty much forced on him in '77. The next coach was a new thinker who transformed the team and the ABs won their first NH Grand Slam ever in '78
It took nearly 7 years for the AB's to get back to winning ways, accept that rugby had to change and NZ rugby & public to move away from the "sack the coach as we should always win" mentality. Fuck it was an awful time for an NZ Rugby fan.
The pain was worth it, but could have been a heck of a lot less if there's been some actual thinking about problems across the piece and were a little more humble
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@stodders said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@berniescorner said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew I get that but I dont think the current players are playing well as a team. There's still a lot of talent there.
Agree with this. The team is capable of quality moments. They are just v inconsistent.
It's been the same since 2017. The question is why.
Too much rugby? Team culture? Not enough playing under pressure in SR? Basic skills slipping? On-field leadership? Mental skills missing?
Answer - All of the above.
Who is teaching them the value of the jersey they wear? And the silver fern next to their hearts? It seemed like that was sadly lacking yesterday.
Its more than just that though. I think we need to play NH teams more often. I think we are too one-dimensional in our attack, out outlook and hell just about everything. We were beaten all ends up by Ireland and France - and by all accounts England would have wiped the floor with us too.
We need to get smarter and inject ome different ways of thinking, coaching and playing by 2023 FFS.
