Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Um I a like Rennie, but I don't know how to break this to you, he's actually coached the Wallabies as long as Foster has done the ABs, and it's not his first year, but second!
I not knocking him by any means (actually always been a Rennie fan) or saying he better or worse than Foster (never would) .@dan54 yes that was pointed out to me. Covid has blurred a lot as far as timeline. But you do admit Foster has been involved with the ABs for 9 years (per @Chris) and I don’t think he was a passenger.
There is one thing I can guarantee you, I (and I guessing anyone on this bored) would have a lot less knowledge of who should be coaching any teams than the people who appoint the coaches.
So we shouldn’t have opinions as they we don’t know what the f we are talking about. You agree with the NZRFU then because most on this board don’t. Most here would have preferred Rennie, Joseph and Brown or Razor. Certainly not status quo.
Mate we all should have opinions, but we have to realise that generally we have uninformed opinions. Just to make it clear, I was real keen on Joseph/Brown coaching the ABs, they weren't available , neither was Rennie. And I would of been more than happy with Razor if had been appointed, but I wasn't doing the appointments.
mate I have been on rugby boards form schoolboy to senior clubs, to provincial rugby, and have been part of appointing plenty of coaches (managers etc as well as doing these jobs). One thing I can guarantee almost every coach appointed there were people who knew better and knew better coaches etc (including when I was the said coach etc), but funnily enough generally they were people who didn't know the reasons why or how appointments were actually made. Hell I have voted against one of my best mates when he stood as coach for a rep team because I believed another coach had a better plan for team.
In saying that we all entitled to opinions, but they just that opinions, on the internet, with absolutely no outcome whether we right or wrong.That also does not mean Coaching appointments are always correctly selected by the Committees appointing them.
History is littered with terrible appointments which have proven as being bad decisions over time.
History through the Chiefs and the last 2 years shows it was a bad decision.
Add whatever role Foster had in the wc semi final loss to England we have more reasons to think it was a bad idea,Especially to reappoint him before the NH tour.That could have egg all over the NZRFU's face. -
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS! -
@chris said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@broughie said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
Um I a like Rennie, but I don't know how to break this to you, he's actually coached the Wallabies as long as Foster has done the ABs, and it's not his first year, but second!
I not knocking him by any means (actually always been a Rennie fan) or saying he better or worse than Foster (never would) .@dan54 yes that was pointed out to me. Covid has blurred a lot as far as timeline. But you do admit Foster has been involved with the ABs for 9 years (per @Chris) and I don’t think he was a passenger.
There is one thing I can guarantee you, I (and I guessing anyone on this bored) would have a lot less knowledge of who should be coaching any teams than the people who appoint the coaches.
So we shouldn’t have opinions as they we don’t know what the f we are talking about. You agree with the NZRFU then because most on this board don’t. Most here would have preferred Rennie, Joseph and Brown or Razor. Certainly not status quo.
Mate we all should have opinions, but we have to realise that generally we have uninformed opinions. Just to make it clear, I was real keen on Joseph/Brown coaching the ABs, they weren't available , neither was Rennie. And I would of been more than happy with Razor if had been appointed, but I wasn't doing the appointments.
mate I have been on rugby boards form schoolboy to senior clubs, to provincial rugby, and have been part of appointing plenty of coaches (managers etc as well as doing these jobs). One thing I can guarantee almost every coach appointed there were people who knew better and knew better coaches etc (including when I was the said coach etc), but funnily enough generally they were people who didn't know the reasons why or how appointments were actually made. Hell I have voted against one of my best mates when he stood as coach for a rep team because I believed another coach had a better plan for team.
In saying that we all entitled to opinions, but they just that opinions, on the internet, with absolutely no outcome whether we right or wrong.That also does not mean Coaching appointments are always correctly selected by the Committees appointing them.
History is littered with terrible appointments which have proven as being bad decisions over time.
History through the Chiefs and the last 2 years shows it was a bad decision.
Add whatever role Foster had in the wc semi final loss to England we have more reasons to think it was a bad idea,Especially to reappoint him before the NH tour.That could have egg all over the NZRFU's face.Of course appointments are not always right, but there has to be a way of appointing coaches etc. And to be honest it doesn't matter who is appointed you will get other candidates supporters disliking and trying to undermine support.
Does anyone remember the shit storm that went down when Robbie Deans missed out to Henry in 2008, somewhat similar, there were thousands who knew better and many weren't even going to support the ABs against Wallabies etc. Ever notice how quiet all those protests were when the ABs won in 2011. As I say, I don't know who should be coach, and would of liked Jamie Joseph, but I am an AB supporter, so will support whoever is playing etc for ABs! -
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Bullshit Henry never said Rennie was his favoured choice, he said he would of liked Rennie to be retained in NZ system. Rennie was never a choice as he already had a job, with Wallabies!!
And actually Razor said he thought he perhaps stuffed up a bit at interview with a couple of wromg answers, well that's what I heard him say. I also wonder if Razor's coaching team was held in high regard as Razor did originally try for Brown on his team and was turned down.
My dream is a Joseph, Brown , Razor team to coach, if egos could work in together. -
@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
didn't Joseph kind of say he didn't want to apply like a score of other people?
I know its a bit arrogant but i think there is some truth to the point...why didn't we just go after the person we wanted? why open it to all? did we think there was a international level coach there that we hadn't heard of?
The best job interview had to be their current jobs, why didnt we just ask to talk to those we wanted to apply, maybe we did and it was always only down to fozzie and razor
NZR sent out letters to all coaches that they thought had coached at high enough level, I think about 12-15? Including Razor, Joseph, Schmidt,Rennie etc etc , and only Razor and Foster applied.
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'Dave Rennie had to be All Blacks coach' - Graham Henry
New Zealand Rugby 'cocked up' by not appointing Wallabies boss Dave Rennie as Steve Hansen's successor as All Blacks coach.
Poor choice of words but this is what I meant. Not that Rennie was in the mix.
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@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
New Zealand Rugby 'cocked up' by not appointing Wallabies boss Dave Rennie as Steve Hansen's successor as All Blacks coach.
Poor choice of words but this is what I meant. Not that Rennie was in the mix.
Mate I heard Henry say he never said that rennie should of got job, but reckons he should of been kept in the system, and not what I read, what I heard him say.
And I will add not sure how true it is, but didn't that come from an Aussie paper, you know saying hey look we got the coach ABs want. -
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Oh man that is a bit rich when you look at who got the job in the end
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@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Oh man that is a bit rich when you look at who got the job in the end
Man read the post, that was Junior's understanding, not what was actually said! man if someone puts on the net it's his understanding, don't get excited over it.
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@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Oh man that is a bit rich when you look at who got the job in the end
Man read the post, that was Junior's understanding, not what was actually said! man if someone puts on the net it's his understanding, don't get excited over it.
I'm not sure if you mean Old SJ not Junior but regardless yeah, GH shouldn't have said anything-obviously not impartial.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Oh man that is a bit rich when you look at who got the job in the end
Man read the post, that was Junior's understanding, not what was actually said! man if someone puts on the net it's his understanding, don't get excited over it.
I'm not sure if you mean Old SJ not Junior but regardless yeah, GH shouldn't have said anything-obviously not impartial.
Well apart from a report in an Aussie paper, I don'r know if he did say anything. Boy talk about rumours becoming facts.
Henry is a great one for tongue in cheek, daughter was at a presentation by him through work, one of her workmates asked Henry what happened to the famous whitebait that Donald was catching when called up to the WC in 2011, his reply " Piri Weepu ate the all the fat bastard". Should we have an enquiry about that? -
@tim said in All Blacks 2021:
All Blacks side full of 'character' could use some more talent in search of new identity
We are gathering further evidence that this approach will end the same way. Right now Foster is just proving Scott Robertson is a better coach by rolling out his Crusaders players but with inferior results.
What a bag of shit, Foster is rolling out Crusaders players against international teams and not super rugby teams. Oh and Crusaders lost 2 games this year didn't they?
Look I no Foster fan, but f*** me if we going to use arguments for or against anyone let's use decent ones. -
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Oh man that is a bit rich when you look at who got the job in the end
Man read the post, that was Junior's understanding, not what was actually said! man if someone puts on the net it's his understanding, don't get excited over it.
I'm not sure if you mean Old SJ not Junior but regardless yeah, GH shouldn't have said anything-obviously not impartial.
Well apart from a report in an Aussie paper, I don'r know if he did say anything. Boy talk about rumours becoming facts.
Henry is a great one for tongue in cheek, daughter was at a presentation by him through work, one of her workmates asked Henry what happened to the famous whitebait that Donald was catching when called up to the WC in 2011, his reply " Piri Weepu ate the all the fat bastard". Should we have an enquiry about that?Not unless whitebait play in or coach the All Blacks.
That is one of the weakest arguments by analogy I've read on the Fern, well done!
But Henry WAS at the panel AND did ask tough questions according to this article and Scott Robertson. IMO he was conflicted and should not have been there.
While Robertson told Greenwood, a former England and British and Irish Lions player, he didn't want to go into detail about the questions that put him on the back foot he offered a glimpse of how tough an adversary Henry could be in such a situation. "But it was probably around my decision making and he (Henry) challenged me on it," Robertson said on the podcast. "And what my thoughts (were) around why I was doing a couple of things and is that right … It was quite a challenging moment. -
@frank said in All Blacks 2021:
Peter Umaga Jensen should have been picked despite an average Super rugby season.
I believe Hansen did that several times with players he deemed to be good fits for the ABs.
There's still time.
This may be unpopular, but Hansen (and Foster to a lesser extent) have struggled to bring in younger less-established PI players and turn them into long-term ABs, especially those who haven't gone through the 'character is king' Crusaders.
That list starts with Luatua, but also includes Piutau and others (Akira) who they've not been prepared to put time into and/or spend money on (had Hansen recognized Luatua's talent, we'd already have our Kaino replacement).
I personally would have picked PUJ ahead of Tupaea, who I think is good, but also a bit limited, and it was clear that we needed a 12/13 (which PUJ covers better than Tupaea).
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@canefan said in All Blacks 2021:
@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Your choice fuck 50 players can’t be all shit but 1 coach isn’t.
I don't think it's an either / or situation. Foster can be not up to it and the playing group can also be a problem - both can be true.
Yeah I think it's a bit of both. A few years ago the team picked itself, now every postion can be debated one way or another. So I don’t really blame Foster for the chopping and changing. Very few are demanding selection.
My memory tells me the year before the 1987 world cup the players and coaches sat down and decided they had to go to a more expansive game if they were to win the cup. They decided that they no longer had the players to win with the usual NZ style (very forward orientated). The NZ game as we know it now has evolved fom there.
Maybe it's time for another major re-think on how we play the game? We have fumbled along since the Lions.
I just don't know if Fozz is the man to change the mindset. He struck me as being a better assistant than a HC
Perhaps he'd make a good manager. The players like him.
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Oh man that is a bit rich when you look at who got the job in the end
Man read the post, that was Junior's understanding, not what was actually said! man if someone puts on the net it's his understanding, don't get excited over it.
I'm not sure if you mean Old SJ not Junior but regardless yeah, GH shouldn't have said anything-obviously not impartial.
Well apart from a report in an Aussie paper, I don'r know if he did say anything. Boy talk about rumours becoming facts.
Henry is a great one for tongue in cheek, daughter was at a presentation by him through work, one of her workmates asked Henry what happened to the famous whitebait that Donald was catching when called up to the WC in 2011, his reply " Piri Weepu ate the all the fat bastard". Should we have an enquiry about that?Not unless whitebait play in or coach the All Blacks.
That is one of the weakest arguments by analogy I've read on the Fern, well done!
But Henry WAS at the panel AND did ask tough questions according to this article and Scott Robertson. IMO he was conflicted and should not have been there.
While Robertson told Greenwood, a former England and British and Irish Lions player, he didn't want to go into detail about the questions that put him on the back foot he offered a glimpse of how tough an adversary Henry could be in such a situation. "But it was probably around my decision making and he (Henry) challenged me on it," Robertson said on the podcast. "And what my thoughts (were) around why I was doing a couple of things and is that right … It was quite a challenging moment.All I can say is good for Graham Henry putting potential AB coaches on the spot. Not being there, but listening to Robertson's comments, you do wonder if he came across as a bit too confident. And no, that's not an endorsement of Foster's team.
As an aside, the missus of a Welsh friend is a headteacher who went to a non-rugby talk by Henry on the importance of sport and non-sport extra-curricular activities in schools. She said he was way ahead of the curve in his thinking on the subject and probably the best educationalist she has ever heard.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@dan54 said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@junior said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@old-samurai-jack said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
My understanding is that Henry & co thought Razor wasn't ready because he needed to get out of his comfort zone here in NZ. Sir GH, just because you took that path doesn't mean it is the right path for everyone. Shouldn't GH have been put out to the retirement pasture due to the fact he is not neutral and is in fact quite cosy with Hansen and by extension Foster?
AND after the appointment of Foster, he goes and says Rennie was his favoured choice! FFS!Oh man that is a bit rich when you look at who got the job in the end
Man read the post, that was Junior's understanding, not what was actually said! man if someone puts on the net it's his understanding, don't get excited over it.
I'm not sure if you mean Old SJ not Junior but regardless yeah, GH shouldn't have said anything-obviously not impartial.
Well apart from a report in an Aussie paper, I don'r know if he did say anything. Boy talk about rumours becoming facts.
Henry is a great one for tongue in cheek, daughter was at a presentation by him through work, one of her workmates asked Henry what happened to the famous whitebait that Donald was catching when called up to the WC in 2011, his reply " Piri Weepu ate the all the fat bastard". Should we have an enquiry about that?Not unless whitebait play in or coach the All Blacks.
That is one of the weakest arguments by analogy I've read on the Fern, well done!
But Henry WAS at the panel AND did ask tough questions according to this article and Scott Robertson. IMO he was conflicted and should not have been there.
While Robertson told Greenwood, a former England and British and Irish Lions player, he didn't want to go into detail about the questions that put him on the back foot he offered a glimpse of how tough an adversary Henry could be in such a situation. "But it was probably around my decision making and he (Henry) challenged me on it," Robertson said on the podcast. "And what my thoughts (were) around why I was doing a couple of things and is that right … It was quite a challenging moment.All I can say is good for Graham Henry putting potential AB coaches on the spot. Not being there, but listening to Robertson's comments, you do wonder if he came across as a bit too confident. And no, that's not an endorsement of Foster's team.
As an aside, the missus of a Welsh friend is a headteacher who went to a non-rugby talk by Henry on the importance of sport and non-sport extra-curricular activities in schools. She said he was way ahead of the curve in his thinking on the subject and probably the best educationalist she has ever heard.
This is what annoys me about the prevailing employment system we have at the moment- resume and interview. Sometimes I feel it comes down to who can do the best resume and who interviews the best rather than who can actually do the job the best. We can all think of people who keep getting jobs despite being useless.
Buggered if I know a better system though.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
As an aside, the missus of a Welsh friend is a headteacher who went to a non-rugby talk by Henry on the importance of sport and non-sport extra-curricular activities in schools. She said he was way ahead of the curve in his thinking on the subject and probably the best educationalist she has ever heard.
He may have learnt that at Auckland Grammar from head John Graham who said extra curricular made the boys much better at planning their time etc.
But as to this "All I can say is good for Graham Henry putting potential AB coaches on the spot."
If he asked just as tough comments of Foster all good.
But as Shag worked for him and Foster worked for Hansen, it doesn't sit right with me that he was on the panel. -
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
If he asked just as tough comments of Foster all good.
But as Shag worked for him and Foster worked for Hansen, it doesn't sit right with meWell if we rule out recent and previous coaches being involved in selection, you miss out on the expertise and if you don't allow those involved in the current coaching set-up to be chosen, it becomes even more of a lottery in choosing the best coach, I guess.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
@nostrildamus said in All Blacks v Ireland, 2021 NH Tour:
If he asked just as tough comments of Foster all good.
But as Shag worked for him and Foster worked for Hansen, it doesn't sit right with meWell if we rule out recent and previous coaches being involved in selection, you miss out on the expertise and if you don't allow those involved in the current coaching set-up to be chosen, it becomes even more of a lottery in choosing the best coach, I guess.
I wonder how common it is to have recent coaches involved, actually. I suspect John Hart wasn't invited back..
