Foster, Robertson, Rennie etc
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Your choice fuck 50 players can’t be all shit but 1 coach isn’t.
I don't think it's an either / or situation. Foster can be not up to it and the playing group can also be a problem - both can be true.
Yeah I think it's a bit of both. A few years ago the team picked itself, now every postion can be debated one way or another. So I don’t really blame Foster for the chopping and changing. Very few are demanding selection.
My memory tells me the year before the 1987 world cup the players and coaches sat down and decided they had to go to a more expansive game if they were to win the cup. They decided that they no longer had the players to win with the usual NZ style (very forward orientated). The NZ game as we know it now has evolved fom there.
Maybe it's time for another major re-think on how we play the game? We have fumbled along since the Lions.
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@crazy-horse said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Your choice fuck 50 players can’t be all shit but 1 coach isn’t.
I don't think it's an either / or situation. Foster can be not up to it and the playing group can also be a problem - both can be true.
Yeah I think it's a bit of both. A few years ago the team picked itself, now every postion can be debated one way or another. So I don’t really blame Foster for the chopping and changing. Very few are demanding selection.
My memory tells me the year before the 1987 world cup the players and coaches sat down and decided they had to go to a more expansive game if they were to win the cup. They decided that they no longer had the players to win with the usual NZ style (very forward orientated). The NZ game as we know it now has evolved fom there.
Maybe it's time for another major re-think on how we play the game? We have fumbled along since the Lions.
I just don't know if Fozz is the man to change the mindset. He struck me as being a better assistant than a HC
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Your choice fuck 50 players can’t be all shit but 1 coach isn’t.
I don't think it's an either / or situation. Foster can be not up to it and the playing group can also be a problem - both can be true.
and that is my main point
I am not a Foster fan, the Chiefs days scarred me. I also think we had got stale in 2019 and just rolling on was a mistake
I can see the serious deficiencies in our play, like most can. I think we have significant issues in our IP.
BUT
I also think we don't have a god-given right to win every game now because, we do not have the players to do it. We have a good squad of good players, that has some serious holes, especially in the grunt areas. No coach is bringing back 2015 with this squad.
And i've been pretty consistent on why i think that is.
I don't disagree,But I have been consistent saying I don't believe Foster and the current coaching group are the one's to take us forward.
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@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
Razor must be pretty good then considering coach Deans has since won 4 Japanese titles, meanwhile Razor's win-record, consistently, selections, man management & reputation with Crusaders/Canterbury exceeds Robbie's.
Razor's more consistent 89% long-term success with Crusaders vs Dean's 74% (with McCaw, Carter et.al).
Dean's 5 titles across 8 seasons vs Razor's 5 titles in 5 seasons without the extensive list of Deans/Blackadder's all time goats like Carter, McCaw, etc.. Robertson has taken on rebuilding jobs at every level, from Sumner, Canterbury & U20's, while Deans managed 1 provincial title in 4 seasons with Canterbury, Razor managed 3 in 4 seasons with mostly a very young group of players as well.
Todd Blackadder coached the Crusaders for eight long years. Zero titles. He had some of the greatest players that have ever graced a rugby field on his roster (hello DC, Richie et al - waves). Zero titles. 63% win record.
The first year Razor coached the Crusaders (after the retirement of the aforesaid GOAT's) the Crusaders win super rugby, he's contributed a staggering 89% win record throughout his 5 years at the helm.
He even coached the Crusaders to a title victory, with the final played in South Africa. The first coach in Super Rugby to manage this feat - not to mention, the first team away on the highveld as well.
And every following season since Crusaders have won the overall title, dominating SA teams in the process. Even a pandemic hasn't put paid to the winning, in SRA, a tougher more intense competition than the previous.
Notwithstanding all that winning, the old boys club still saw fit to appoint and then reappoint Foster in 2021, before they even faced a top 5 side in the rankings...
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Also, there seems to be a misconception on here that Robertson would simply be a Robbie Deans 2.0, when in reality they are very different coaches..
Deans was never Razor's level. Razor has produced far more consistent results overall when look across his campaigns.
Razor has superior man-management, tactical skills & has flawless player coach relationships, his game-planning is razor sharp as well.
In contrast, Robbie has a long history of inconsistent results, poor selections & widely documented fallouts with his players..
Selecting Blair & Ralph, after dropping Cullen, playing McDonald at 13, etc.. Deans had a infamous history of completely bizarre selections.
Deans was an overrated coach who won 1 NPC title from 4 seasons with Canterbury, Razor won 3/4 titles with Canterbury, so far 5/5 with Crusaders despite the absence of multiple greats - of which Deans had an abundance of.
Razor's 89% Crusaders win record makes Dean's 74% look relatively middling in comparison.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Deans was never Razor's level. Razor has produced far more consistent results overall when look across his campaigns.
How'd he go in the most recent SRTT comp?
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@crucial said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@kirwan said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
@chris said in All Blacks v France, 2021 NH Tour:
Razor can’t be held responsible for the idiot that stuffs his game up when he is not under Razor.
Not sure what this has to do with George Bridge....
Bridge plays ok under Razor so same story.
But that only holds true if Test rugby isn't step-up from Super Rugby, doesn't it?
What ?
Lots of players look good in Super Rugby and struggle up a level in Test rugby.
What has that do with Foster being coach and Razor not being good enough to be AB coach that’s what the discusion was about.
Foster has picked Bridge for 2 years so if he isn’t good enough for Test Rugby that confirms Foster should not be AB coach as he can’t identify who is good enough to play test rugby.
Razor can’t be judged as not being good enough and that’s what the original conversation was about if he hasn’t had a chance .You are the one comparing how players go under Razor, at a lower level of rugby. It's not a good comparison.
No Crucial started that I gave the opposite opinion. As I said to him its not a good comparison reversed either.
No. You are still getting the wrong end of the stick.
I was simply saying (if you go back to my OP) that it is a valid question to ask whether lifting Razor up a step automatically means fixing weaknesses when he has already had a chance to fix those weaknesses in some players for many years (or direct his assistants to do so).
I have not claimed that he is a bad coach. I am questioning why he may not have taken action to improve some of the problems players have already. Maybe he has tried and there is no room for improvement eg RMs decision making under pressure and 'lack' of direction.
If that is the case then that doesn't point to him being able to fix AB problems because no one can probably fix that player further eg can't turn RM into DC.
Therefore given the current cattle he can't turn around the team in those key areas.There is way too much assumption that he would be the saviour of AB rugby and talk of the stupidity of NZR not to appoint him. We heard all the same stuff about Deans but in the end did history show that we threw away a great coach?
Razor must be pretty good then considering coach Deans has since won 4 Japanese titles, meanwhile Razor's win-record, consistently, selections, man management & reputation with Crusaders/Canterbury exceeds Robbie's.
Razor's more consistent 89% long-term success with Crusaders vs Dean's 74% (with McCaw, Carter et.al).
Dean's 5 titles across 8 seasons vs Razor's 5 titles in 5 seasons without the extensive list of Deans/Blackadder's all time goats like Carter, McCaw, etc.. Robertson has taken on rebuilding jobs at every level, from Sumner, Canterbury & U20's, while Deans managed 1 provincial title in 4 seasons with Canterbury, Razor managed 3 in 4 seasons with mostly a very young group of players as well.
Todd Blackadder coached the Crusaders for eight long years. Zero titles. He had some of the greatest players that have ever graced a rugby field on his roster (hello DC, Richie et al - waves). Zero titles. 63% win record.
The first year Razor coached the Crusaders (after the retirement of the aforesaid GOAT's) the Crusaders win super rugby, he's contributed a staggering 89% win record throughout his 5 years at the helm.
He even coached the Crusaders to a title victory, with the final played in South Africa. The first coach in Super Rugby to manage this feat - not to mention, the first team away on the highveld as well.
And every following season since Crusaders have won the overall title, dominating SA teams in the process. Even a pandemic hasn't put paid to the winning, in SRA, a tougher more intense competition than the previous.
Notwithstanding all that winning, the old boys club still saw fit to appoint and then reappoint Foster in 2021, before they even faced a top 5 side in the rankings...
Great Post you are spot on.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Also, there seems to be a misconception on here that Robertson would simply be a Robbie Deans 2.0, when in reality they are very different coaches..
NO. I made the comparison and it was all about the public baying for them to be appointed, not about their coaching records or styles.
The point was that it becomes a mantra and loses some objectivity. I haven't ever said that Razor isn't a good coach just that maybe there are things we should question before declaring him as the saviour.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp didn't drop a game.
in all seriousness, he's a very very good coach.
However, coaching Super and coaching Internationals aren't the same. I could understand why 2 years ago they went somewhere else - he hadn't built the resume he has now.
Also, coaching at the crusaders is like Mo'unga in Super; an armchair ride withthe forward pack. A competent administration around you makes life much easier. The challenge for Razor from Sir Graham was to get out of his comfort zone and go and coach successfully somewhere else. Both Henry and Hansen did this, and I really think it benefitted them.
I don't think yuo'll find many who would prefer Foster to Robertson, but there are a bunch of people we should have been looking for but NZR borked the process completely. Foster is a shambles, and I'm on record wanting him to go early. The reappointment this year was a disgrace.
But also, red and black brigading here is pretty funny; some folk dance on the head of a pin to justify their player selections. Haven't seen the provincialism for years with the AB success, so it's kind of refreshing to have it back.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp didn't drop a game.
in all seriousness, he's a very very good coach.
However, coaching Super and coaching Internationals aren't the same. I could understand why 2 years ago they went somewhere else - he hadn't built the resume he has now.
Also, coaching at the crusaders is like Mo'unga in Super; an armchair ride withthe forward pack. A competent administration around you makes life much easier. The challenge for Razor from Sir Graham was to get out of his comfort zone and go and coach successfully somewhere else. Both Henry and Hansen did this, and I really think it benefitted them.
I don't think yuo'll find many who would prefer Foster to Robertson, but there are a bunch of people we should have been looking for but NZR borked the process completely. Foster is a shambles, and I'm on record wanting him to go early. The reappointment this year was a disgrace.
But also, red and black brigading here is pretty funny; some folk dance on the head of a pin to justify their player selections. Haven't seen the provincialism for years with the AB success, so it's kind of refreshing to have it back.
and seem to be forgotten the team he had coming with him was weak
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This post is deleted!
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp didn't drop a game.
in all seriousness, he's a very very good coach.
However, coaching Super and coaching Internationals aren't the same. I could understand why 2 years ago they went somewhere else - he hadn't built the resume he has now.
Also, coaching at the crusaders is like Mo'unga in Super; an armchair ride withthe forward pack. A competent administration around you makes life much easier. The challenge for Razor from Sir Graham was to get out of his comfort zone and go and coach successfully somewhere else. Both Henry and Hansen did this, and I really think it benefitted them.
I don't think yuo'll find many who would prefer Foster to Robertson, but there are a bunch of people we should have been looking for but NZR borked the process completely. Foster is a shambles, and I'm on record wanting him to go early. The reappointment this year was a disgrace.
But also, red and black brigading here is pretty funny; some folk dance on the head of a pin to justify their player selections. Haven't seen the provincialism for years with the AB success, so it's kind of refreshing to have it back.
I have to say....i dont agree with the idea that super level is easy compared to international, i could just as easily argue that the AB coach gets to cherry pick the best players from (at least arguably) the best club competition in the world and often only has to put a squad together for 4-6 games in a row
theyre different, but i dont think its straight line in difficulty
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@nzzp Here's a really insightful article by Ronan O'Gara about Razor and Foster's appointment in 2019:
Ronan O'Gara: Razor didn’t fall short at all in All Blacks bid
Being a strong advocate of Scott Robertson to replace Steve Hansen as All Blacks coach does not mean Ian Foster is not the right fit in my eyes.
"Irrespective how I word this, it will be interpreted incorrectly by some.
Being a strong advocate of Scott Robertson to replace Steve Hansen as All Blacks coach does not mean Ian Foster is not the right fit in my eyes.
But — there’s always a but — I can’t help feeling that the New Zealand Rugby hierarchy has missed a trick here.
Timing is everything, they say, and the timing for ‘Razor’ to assume the most prestigious post of his career was absolutely perfect.
He is a brilliant coach, a brilliant people person, and when Sam Whitelock returns from his gap year in Japan, he would have had a brilliant chemistry with his captain moving towards the next World Cup.
When I heard Razor hadn’t got the job, I started wondering where did he fall short? Of course, he didn’t fall short at all.
The NZRU clearly were looking for something different. Continuity? Experience? But what have they given up?
Razor’s vision for the All Blacks is something the players and the country will miss going forward.
I’d love to have seen his presentation, because rest assured, it would have been innovative and progressive and something the interview board would not have seen before. Perhaps too much so.
Maybe ‘falling short’ amounted to being too ‘out there’ for decision-makers in the NZRU, and I am only surmising here.
Rugby and society are changing so fast nowadays, it’s hard to keep up if you are in your twenties, never mind forty-something coaches like Razor and I. But he gets it.
He connects brilliantly with players 20 years younger than him. I believe that should be a pre-requisite for getting a job like this.
He just makes the game so enjoyable. Being in an All Black camp with Razor would have been a fun place to be.
Of course, there’s no reason to assume it won’t be like that under Ian Foster.
Those underwhelmed by his appointment point to the ‘sameness’ of the new set-up, but that does not take into consideration the player turnover in that time.
Foster is 54, he was clearly not ‘the people’s choice’, but that perception is very easily changed when you are racking up the W’s.
I worked closely with Scott Robertson for two years, so I am biased. It is argued that one of his main shortcomings is a lack of international test experience.
That’s an impossible argument to win either way but consider two things here — No 1, that is a stick used to beat a player, not a coach who has dominated the game in the southern hemisphere for three years.
And secondly, two thirds of the NZ team are his own Crusaders, many of them he has developed into All Black leaders.
Razor’s ability to get the best out of the remainder of the group when they pull on the black jersey is beyond dispute when you’ve seen him work at close quarters.
Where does he excel? His abilities in the area of people interaction and connection are off the charts. He stokes players’ passion, their identity, and their focus.
I saw all those things first hand in Christchurch and I think he would even ramp it up had he been the new All Blacks coach.
I do wonder was Razor even over the heads of some of the decision-makers in this process? I don’t mean that in a pejorative way, but he thinks fresh and he thinks different.
Maybe that scared some folk."
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
**I worked closely with Scott Robertson for two years, so I am biased. It is argued that one of his main shortcomings is a lack of international test experience.
i do always laugh at that argument....by that logic we would have no new caps....because they dont have international experience, surely you look at those that stand out from one level as ready to step up to the next
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
I do wonder was Razor even over the heads of some of the decision-makers in this process? I don’t mean that in a pejorative way, but he thinks fresh and he thinks different.
Maybe that scared some folk.**That would have, innovation we can't have that in the All Blacks.Same old stick in the mud stuff is what we need.
That sort of thinking may scare some Ferner's who like mediocrity. -
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@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
Why are the Cantabs circling the wagons for Razor?
I don’t think there’s anyone here who’d rather have Fozzie than Razor.
i hope you were insinuating i was a saders fan....i want the AB's to poach him so the saders dont have him any more!
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
Why are the Cantabs circling the wagons for Razor?
I don’t think there’s anyone here who’d rather have Fozzie than Razor.
i hope you were insinuating i was a saders fan....i want the AB's to poach him so the saders dont have him any more!
Nope wasn’t accusing you of being a Crusaders fan - I’m not cruel.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@nepia said in All Blacks 2021:
Why are the Cantabs circling the wagons for Razor?
I don’t think there’s anyone here who’d rather have Fozzie than Razor.
i hope you were insinuating i was a saders fan....i want the AB's to poach him so the saders dont have him any more!
Yeah on second thoughts Fuck it Ab's can keep Foster, we will keep Razor and keep winning.
Then I can keep bagging the fuck out of Foster for his next 9 years.
