Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..)
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We don’t want to be debating about the now but more about the goal which I assume would be 2023. Ask ourselves what sort of players will Ardie and Cane be in two years as opposed to Paps and Jacobson. Hopefully we will get to play the Boks this year to see where we are really at. Two years out from the WC we are rapidly running out of time to blood new players in the backline so apart from DMac who is off to Japan would suggest the current backline is probably it just not sure in what combinations. Not even sure Goodhue will be back in the mix but hope so
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@dmx said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
How about we change nothing and tell Ardie to have 7 on his jersey , Ioane 8 and Papali'i 6 and I am guessing that would make everyone happy.
Ioane 6, Cane/Papali'i 7, Jacobson 8, Savea 20.
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@shark said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Agree with this long winded post with regards to lack of balance, sectorial pig-rootery and guys being shoe-horned in.
I think we all know I believe Savea is our best 7, including when Cane is available. He's certainly not an international 8. And if you believe he's not good enough defensively at 7 then he's far from an 8, and probably not even in the 23. But I'd have him as my 7 as I value highly his skills over the ball and as a link man. I don't see Papali'i as a 7 any more than the likes of Blackadder, but at the moment he's a fantastic utility loosie.
At 8 I'm starting to like Jacobson, but I also think they should invest in Papali'i getting a crack there. I've gone off Sotutu and was never much of a Ioane fan although credit to his improvement at 6. I'll be interested to see if Grace comes back strongly next year with some time off now to build into it. But Jacobson appears our best option here.
At 6 I think Frizzel has had plenty of opportunity and hasnt converted. I had high hopes for Fifita but he's now goooone. I'm also keener on Papali'i here than 7. Ioane seems to have done enough to hold this spot though and offers the requisite height which few if any other candidates have. Blackadder is another who can be considered here.
So my current trio is Jasobsen, Savea and Ioane with Papali'i off the bench.
At Super rugby level Sotutu was a stand out 8. He has an X factor, which I can’t say about Jacobson, and in style is a little like a bigger version of Ardie.
I hope they persevere with him at test level, because he has the potential to become a world class 8.
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@pakman said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@shark said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Agree with this long winded post with regards to lack of balance, sectorial pig-rootery and guys being shoe-horned in.
I think we all know I believe Savea is our best 7, including when Cane is available. He's certainly not an international 8. And if you believe he's not good enough defensively at 7 then he's far from an 8, and probably not even in the 23. But I'd have him as my 7 as I value highly his skills over the ball and as a link man. I don't see Papali'i as a 7 any more than the likes of Blackadder, but at the moment he's a fantastic utility loosie.
At 8 I'm starting to like Jacobson, but I also think they should invest in Papali'i getting a crack there. I've gone off Sotutu and was never much of a Ioane fan although credit to his improvement at 6. I'll be interested to see if Grace comes back strongly next year with some time off now to build into it. But Jacobson appears our best option here.
At 6 I think Frizzel has had plenty of opportunity and hasnt converted. I had high hopes for Fifita but he's now goooone. I'm also keener on Papali'i here than 7. Ioane seems to have done enough to hold this spot though and offers the requisite height which few if any other candidates have. Blackadder is another who can be considered here.
So my current trio is Jasobsen, Savea and Ioane with Papali'i off the bench.
At Super rugby level Sotutu was a stand out 8. He has an X factor, which I can’t say about Jacobson, and in style is a little like a bigger version of Ardie.
I hope they persevere with him at test level, because he has the potential to become a world class 8.
Jacobsen has very similar attributes to Papali'i. Fast, strong in contact, always around the ball and he's a natural leader, being a former 2017 NZ-U20 captain.
He seems made for test rugby, tireless worker & doesn't ever go missing in matches unlike Sotutu.
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Jacobson! (Swedish spelling rather than Danish -sen).
Jacobson Paps and Ioane can all (arguably) 6/8. Not sure you want to play Ioane at 8 as he has done well at 6. I like Sotutu as well but he didn't play that well recently. I'm guessing we should bracket players starting at 7, 8 then 6:
7 Cane Ardie Paps (seems the recent order, perhaps Paps challenged that but his last game wasn't perfect)
8 Ardie (coach rating not mine) Jacobson Sotutu (possibly Ioane or someone else)
6 Ioane Frizell [?] Jacobson possibly Paps or Blackadder and Cane or maybe Ardie? [logjam] -
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@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
It's not gonna happen, but I'd be quite interested to see how Sotutu goes at 7 (not at test level necessarily, so I guess he could potentially get a run there for the blues if Paps is out/rested).
I guess it could confuse the opposition if the AB loosies play musical chairs..
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@nostrildamus especially when they're playing musical chairs themselves...
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@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
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@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
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@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
To be clear, I really rate Jacobsen as well. Getting our balance is the challenge, but there's plenty of raw material to work with
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@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
and not the same level of physicality out of sotutu
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@ploughboy said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
and not the same level of physicality out of sotutu
true. I've seen some physicality but not nearly as much as I have from Jacobson. I rate both by the way, just feel Sotutu is potentially more athletic, less hard-hitting, but currently not playing his best. Not sure why. At 8 I'd prefer Jacobson to Savea, and Sotutu to Savea IF Sotutu is in form.
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@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nostrildamus said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
I agree, I haven't seen the same level of speed from Jacobson yet but perhaps that was because of the way the games played out...
To be clear, I really rate Jacobsen as well. Getting our balance is the challenge, but there's plenty of raw material to work with
Yep, and I have zero faith in the current panel maximising the talent and finding the right balance.
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@nzzp said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@bones said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
@pakman yeah time is on his side and it's pretty easy to forget how long similar players like Savea, So'oialo took to find their feet at test level, while looking like stars in super rugby.
second year syndrome is a thing. He had an average Super season, but showed enough towards the end to scrape into the ABs. Next year will be critical for his development - go well there, adn hopefully transfer to the Test arena.
Sotutu's got athleticism and pace that I haven't seen from Jacobsen yet - I'd be working with him on it, to accelerate getting him to the level we want from him.
Sotutu is excellent in lineouts, and has superb passing skills.
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Jacobson has great fine skills. Off loads and line running. He also is very physical in the tackle and clean out. I rate him highly at 6 or 8. His head knocks have held him back a bit. I think he has a solid chance at the 6 jersey too.
Sotutu, Obviously bigger, probably has better fine skills and slightly more dynamic. But has had an average year. If Sotutu is at potential, he is ahead of jacobson at 8, but right now he is not. Had good game for counties but nothing special
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@pakman said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
Sotutu is excellent in lineouts, and has superb passing skills.
The problem has been that Sotutu sometimes doesn't pass when he should (for example, ignoring BB right before HT vs Fiji). Jacobson has always been used in the lineout in any team he has played for.
We should just be happy that we have some depth in the loose forwards, and there are options.
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@bovidae said in Hansen/Foster's recent selection philosophy & the consequences it has on team balance (back-row, back-three, bench etc..):
We should just be happy that we have some depth in the loose forwards, and there are options.
^^^ This! Hansen fiddling around trying and failing to find a decent Test 6 (or balanced loose forward trio) was painful. Having a couple of decent contenders in each position now is bloody magic.
