All Blacks vs Fiji 2
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@bovidae said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@booboo It was never Smith-like but as good as other AB halfbacks since that time. But as I said, only at the very start of his career. I watched the 1996 SA series again recently. I've never had Meg anywhere near my all-time AB teams though.
Interesting. I wonder if it declined at the same time as the achilles injury.
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
I should imagine we said the same about Tana and Ma'a.
Who said Ma’a would be a better winger? Was it Winger?
If we go back to 2005, when I first joined, I think there was still some discussion about Ma'a being better on the wing because he couldn't distribute, and I imagine that such discussions would have been happening beforehand (like 2003).
Can’t recall that. A lot of talk about how shit he apparently was and maybe even how he should got to league. At the end of the day, he broke through as a 13 and was selected as a 13 for the ABs. He didn’t have a breakthrough season at wing then get shifted to 13.
His first season for the Canes was at wing. I recall bumping into him that season on Courtnay Place and having had a few told him he would be an AB that season. IIRC he made the ABs as a wing/utility first but rarely played. Wiki says he debuted at centre so that shows how good my memory is
He played in the England loss in Wellington at 13 outside Tana. I know because I was there when Justin Marshall looked the wrong way.
I was at that game. Caleb Ralph was average and our scrum couldn't push back a 7 man English pack
First statement correct. Second not.
I haven't watched this for years as that scrum sequence and the reffing annoyed me so much. Added to that one of my favourite players copped a load of unwarranted shit because of it.
First scrum with 6 and England just walked around and turned it 180. Ref blows and calls reset. Second scrum they flop down immediately and ref calls reset again. Third time they stand up. Reset again. Fourth, he finally blows a penalty. No wonder Rodders had a crack at the line. Then, he was tackled by two offside players and got the ball on the line as his right to place it forward.
I know that reffing management around these situations has changed since then but these day we would expect a warning on the screw, another card on the flop and a PT on the stand up. TMO should have picked up the 9 and 6 not retreating and to me it was clear he was within his rights to place it forward.As for Meg I'm surprised that Los didn't give him shit for all the passes he had to catch at head level or higher. Also when he does his hammy he spends ages at the next ruck clutching his leg instead of clearing the ball, tries to wave off the sideline that he will play on then next moment he can't even walk and does an impression of Mark Lundy being carried off. It just all looks so 'look at me'
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@crucial said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@gt12 said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
I should imagine we said the same about Tana and Ma'a.
Who said Ma’a would be a better winger? Was it Winger?
If we go back to 2005, when I first joined, I think there was still some discussion about Ma'a being better on the wing because he couldn't distribute, and I imagine that such discussions would have been happening beforehand (like 2003).
Can’t recall that. A lot of talk about how shit he apparently was and maybe even how he should got to league. At the end of the day, he broke through as a 13 and was selected as a 13 for the ABs. He didn’t have a breakthrough season at wing then get shifted to 13.
His first season for the Canes was at wing. I recall bumping into him that season on Courtnay Place and having had a few told him he would be an AB that season. IIRC he made the ABs as a wing/utility first but rarely played. Wiki says he debuted at centre so that shows how good my memory is
He played in the England loss in Wellington at 13 outside Tana. I know because I was there when Justin Marshall looked the wrong way.
I was at that game. Caleb Ralph was average and our scrum couldn't push back a 7 man English pack
First statement correct. Second not.
I haven't watched this for years as that scrum sequence and the reffing annoyed me so much. Added to that one of my favourite players copped a load of unwarranted shit because of it.
First scrum with 6 and England just walked around and turned it 180. Ref blows and calls reset. Second scrum they flop down immediately and ref calls reset again. Third time they stand up. Reset again. Fourth, he finally blows a penalty. No wonder Rodders had a crack at the line. Then, he was tackled by two offside players and got the ball on the line as his right to place it forward.
I know that reffing management around these situations has changed since then but these day we would expect a warning on the screw, another card on the flop and a PT on the stand up. TMO should have picked up the 9 and 6 not retreating and to me it was clear he was within his rights to place it forward.Excellent summary, thanks!!
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On that 2003 England test, it was Nonu, Rokocoko and Mils debut test.
Rodders and Mealamu’s second, Steve Devine’s third (he played half the game) and Ali Williams fourth test.
We had Carter and Brad Thorn on the bench who hadn’t played for the ABs (and both didn’t get on the field).
Anton Oliver’s first test back since he lost the captaincy after the 01 EOYT.
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@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
On that 2003 England test, it was Nonu, Rokocoko and Mils debut test.
Rodders and Mealamu’s second, Steve Devine’s third (he played half the game) and Ali Williams fourth test.
We had Carter and Brad Thorn on the bench who hadn’t played for the ABs (and both didn’t get on the field).
Anton Oliver’s first test back since he lost the captaincy after the 01 EOYT.
Good old “safe” Caleb Ralph made errors and had about as much physical impact with the ball in hand as a wet pretzel. Him being bundled into touch that close to the line was embarrassing.
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@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
On that 2003 England test, it was Nonu, Rokocoko and Mils debut test.
Rodders and Mealamu’s second, Steve Devine’s third (he played half the game) and Ali Williams fourth test.
We had Carter and Brad Thorn on the bench who hadn’t played for the ABs (and both didn’t get on the field).
Anton Oliver’s first test back since he lost the captaincy after the 01 EOYT.
Fair to say they all went on to bloody good things between them.
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@nzzp @Crucial a more recent grudge, but one I will hold on for the next 20 years…
French referee Romain Poite's series-deciding decision to reverse a call for a penalty in the dying moments of the third All Blacks-British & Irish Lions Test at Eden Park in 2017 has been described by an experienced British rugby writer as 'inexplicable now as it was then.'
Peter Jackson wrote in The Rugby Paper in response to Poite's comments on Rugby Pass that he got the decision wrong and had wrecked everything in the referees' dressing room after the game.
The scores had just been levelled moments from the end of the game when Lion Owen Farrell landed a penalty goal. But in the play after the restart, Lions hooker Ken Owens had, as Jackson put it, 'been caught red-handed playing the ball in an offside position after Liam Williams' knock-on. An open-and-shut case of a penalty within comfortable striking distance and time rapidly running out.'
"Poite duly did as the law decreed. Clutching at the only straw he could find, [captain] Sam Warburton asked him to give the video another look, a request which in hindsight turned out to be a stroke of captaincy genius.
"The referee's volte face, as inexplicable now as it was then, saved the series for the Lions. More pointedly, it got their substitute hooker off the hook of history," he said.
But after Poite's mea culpa, Jackson said the real issue was not that he had got the decision wrong because everyone gets things wrongs at some time in life.
What was concerning was, "World Rugby knew Poite had got it wrong but tried to tell him that he had also got it right."
Poite said among the many calls he received, he was told several times that it was a mistake, but 'it was justice, the right decision.' He added World Rugby had made those comments to him.
But Jackson argued, "Those attempting to excuse Poite on the spurious grounds that his blunder ensured an honourable draw, however unwittingly, are plain wrong. Anyone subscribing to that view is ignoring the fact that at Eden Park that night justice, as laid down in the law book, was not done.
"Whether the Lions deserved a draw or not is irrelevant…
"If Sir Steve Hansen smelt a rat at the time, he smells a bigger one now.
"The disturbing thing for me," Hansen said, "is the phone call he [Poite] gets from World Rugby saying you made a mistake, but it's justified.
"That's the worrying thing because the rules are the rules. The problem with the game at the moment is that we are trying to justify too many things. If we want the game to be a proper game then you cannot have people from World Rugby making these comments.
"My beef is not with any mistake the referee has made, but the way it was handled. The law book says 'penalty'," Hansen said.
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@act-crusader said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
@nzzp @Crucial a more recent grudge, but one I will hold on for the next 20 years…
French referee Romain Poite's series-deciding decision to reverse a call for a penalty in the dying moments of the third All Blacks-British & Irish Lions Test at Eden Park in 2017 has been described by an experienced British rugby writer as 'inexplicable now as it was then.'
Peter Jackson wrote in The Rugby Paper in response to Poite's comments on Rugby Pass that he got the decision wrong and had wrecked everything in the referees' dressing room after the game.
The scores had just been levelled moments from the end of the game when Lion Owen Farrell landed a penalty goal. But in the play after the restart, Lions hooker Ken Owens had, as Jackson put it, 'been caught red-handed playing the ball in an offside position after Liam Williams' knock-on. An open-and-shut case of a penalty within comfortable striking distance and time rapidly running out.'
"Poite duly did as the law decreed. Clutching at the only straw he could find, [captain] Sam Warburton asked him to give the video another look, a request which in hindsight turned out to be a stroke of captaincy genius.
"The referee's volte face, as inexplicable now as it was then, saved the series for the Lions. More pointedly, it got their substitute hooker off the hook of history," he said.
But after Poite's mea culpa, Jackson said the real issue was not that he had got the decision wrong because everyone gets things wrongs at some time in life.
What was concerning was, "World Rugby knew Poite had got it wrong but tried to tell him that he had also got it right."
Poite said among the many calls he received, he was told several times that it was a mistake, but 'it was justice, the right decision.' He added World Rugby had made those comments to him.
But Jackson argued, "Those attempting to excuse Poite on the spurious grounds that his blunder ensured an honourable draw, however unwittingly, are plain wrong. Anyone subscribing to that view is ignoring the fact that at Eden Park that night justice, as laid down in the law book, was not done.
"Whether the Lions deserved a draw or not is irrelevant…
"If Sir Steve Hansen smelt a rat at the time, he smells a bigger one now.
"The disturbing thing for me," Hansen said, "is the phone call he [Poite] gets from World Rugby saying you made a mistake, but it's justified.
"That's the worrying thing because the rules are the rules. The problem with the game at the moment is that we are trying to justify too many things. If we want the game to be a proper game then you cannot have people from World Rugby making these comments.
"My beef is not with any mistake the referee has made, but the way it was handled. The law book says 'penalty'," Hansen said.
Any idiot who bangs on about how refs are biased towards the ABs should read that. But I would have thought 2007 was evidence enough.
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The matchday 23 is (Test caps in brackets)
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George Bower (2)
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Codie Taylor (57)
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Nepo Laulala (30)
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Scott Barrett (41)
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Samuel Whitelock (124) - captain
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Akira Ioane (3)
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Ardie Savea (49)
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Luke Jacobson (4)
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Aaron Smith (98)
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Richie Mo’unga (23)
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Sevu Reece (9)
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David Havili (4)
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Anton Lienert-Brown (49)
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Will Jordan (4)
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Damian McKenzie (29)
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Dane Coles (76)
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Ethan de Groot (1)
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Angus Ta’avao (15)
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Brodie Retallick (82)
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Shannon Frizell
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Brad Weber (8)
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Beauden Barrett (90)
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Rieko Ioane (35)
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@bovidae said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
The matchday 23 is (Test caps in brackets)
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George Bower (2)
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Codie Taylor (57)
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Nepo Laulala (30)
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Scott Barrett (41)
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Samuel Whitelock (124) - captain
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Akira Ioane (3)
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Ardie Savea (49)
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Luke Jacobson (4)
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Aaron Smith (98)
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Richie Mo’unga (23)
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Sevu Reece (9)
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David Havili (4)
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Anton Lienert-Brown (49)
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Will Jordan (4)
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Damian McKenzie (29)
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Dane Coles (76)
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Ethan de Groot (1)
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Angus Ta’avao (15)
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Brodie Retallick (82)
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Shannon Frizell
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Brad Weber (8)
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Beauden Barrett (90)
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Rieko Ioane (35)
That looks close to the top side certainly the 23 at least.
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that has to be close to full strength team (bower an exception), considering it was still a decent score last week...this could be a hiding
I like the idea of reece on the left and Jordan (second fullback) on the right, its tried and true
glad we'll get to see AI start again, will also be interesting to see if Frizell does any better off the bench against a tiring opposition
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@bovidae said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
The matchday 23 is (Test caps in brackets)
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George Bower (2)
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Codie Taylor (57)
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Nepo Laulala (30)
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Scott Barrett (41)
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Samuel Whitelock (124) - captain
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Akira Ioane (3)
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Ardie Savea (49)
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Luke Jacobson (4)
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Aaron Smith (98)
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Richie Mo’unga (23)
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Sevu Reece (9)
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David Havili (4)
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Anton Lienert-Brown (49)
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Will Jordan (4)
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Damian McKenzie (29)
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Dane Coles (76)
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Ethan de Groot (1)
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Angus Ta’avao (15)
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Brodie Retallick (82)
20. Shannon Frizell -
Brad Weber (8)
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Beauden Barrett (90)
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Rieko Ioane (35)
Congrats to Frizell for making his debut. Good luck with your AB career young fella. Upwards and onwards
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About as good a team as they can pick at the moment.
Couple of question for me
Bower seems to get through quite a tackles in a game but I'd be interested to know if any of them are dominant tackles. Seems to have quite a low technique for a big fulla. Better than risking a card but you have to find a balance from your big men.
Barrett will help with the collisions where BBBR was like a wet paper bag but only if he stays on the park.
Savea is coming back from injury and has hardly played 7 since 2019. Are we going to have Savea and AIoane out on the wings with just Jacobson doing the donkey work or will Savea actually play like a 7.
Good to see Smith paired with RM. Seems pretty clear that RM is the number pick so hopefully he gets a sh*tload of game time there now. BB back to his impact role.
Looking at that backline it's full of midgets with 5 players that halfback sized. It's a shame RIoane isn't starting a head of Reece.
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I would have liked to see BBBR have a start alongside Whitelock but I guess there are reasons why not.
It usually takes a few games in a row for him to get going. When the old duo was back together last week they basically pulled a maul backwards for Coles' third(?) try. BBBR in particular put in some huge leg drive for that one.
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@toddy said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
About as good a team as they can pick at the moment.
Couple of question for me
Bower seems to get through quite a tackles in a game but I'd be interested to know if any of them are dominant tackles. Seems to have quite a low technique for a big fulla. Better than risking a card but you have to find a balance from your big men.
Barrett will help with the collisions where BBBR was like a wet paper bag but only if he stays on the park.
Savea is coming back from injury and has hardly played 7 since 2019. Are we going to have Savea and AIoane out on the wings with just Jacobson doing the donkey work or will Savea actually play like a 7.
Good to see Smith paired with RM. Seems pretty clear that RM is the number pick so hopefully he gets a sh*tload of game time there now. BB back to his impact role.
Looking at that backline it's full of midgets with 5 players that halfback sized. It's a shame RIoane isn't starting a head of Reece.
If you are regarding Havilli as one of the 5 midgets at (1.84m and 95kg ) I wouldn't regard him as a midget.Not massive but not a midget.
Pretty much the Same size as ALB at 96kg and 1.85m -
@toddy said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
Looking at that backline it's full of midgets with 5 players that halfback sized. It's a shame RIoane isn't starting a head of Reece.
When Weber comes on they will be bigger than most halfbacks.
Joking aside, they aren't units but aren't exactly midgets either (DMac aside)
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@toddy said in All Blacks vs Fiji 2:
About as good a team as they can pick at the moment.
Couple of question for me
Bower seems to get through quite a tackles in a game but I'd be interested to know if any of them are dominant tackles. Seems to have quite a low technique for a big fulla. Better than risking a card but you have to find a balance from your big men.
Barrett will help with the collisions where BBBR was like a wet paper bag but only if he stays on the park.
Savea is coming back from injury and has hardly played 7 since 2019. Are we going to have Savea and AIoane out on the wings with just Jacobson doing the donkey work or will Savea actually play like a 7.
Good to see Smith paired with RM. Seems pretty clear that RM is the number pick so hopefully he gets a sh*tload of game time there now. BB back to his impact role.
Looking at that backline it's full of midgets with 5 players that halfback sized. It's a shame RIoane isn't starting a head of Reece.
Yeah Bower is an interesting one. Surprised he actually made the ABs, but they must see something that I don’t.
I’m quietly excited to see how this loose forward trio will go. On paper there is a skill set that complements each other, but they haven’t played together which means we will probably see a little disjointed stuff.
With Havili at 12 and a genuine playmaker, I think this will free up Mo’unga to take on the line a bit more. Again on paper Havili / ALB could be exciting.
On the back 3, Will Jordan is a good 6’2, not Jordie height, but he has more size than most people think.
