All Blacks 2021
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@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Thanks I appreciate the response and a very interesting well balanced one.
As you know I am not a Foster Fan really for all the negative reasons you outlined in your post.I would like him replaced.
But I take on board the other things you have said as they are good balanced points.One thing I might add is this: Has Super Rugby become too disconnected from Test level and doesn't provide the experience and exposure to pressure needed?
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Thanks I appreciate the response and a very interesting well balanced one.
As you know I am not a Foster Fan really for all the negative reasons you outlined in your post.I would like him replaced.
But I take on board the other things you have said as they are good balanced points.One thing I might add is this: Has Super Rugby become too disconnected from Test level and doesn't provide the experience and exposure to pressure needed?
yes, yes, yes.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
These high-profile head coaches have magnetic and charismatic personalities. Foster has all the charisma of dry paint.
Two words: Carwyn James.
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@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Thanks I appreciate the response and a very interesting well balanced one.
As you know I am not a Foster Fan really for all the negative reasons you outlined in your post.I would like him replaced.
But I take on board the other things you have said as they are good balanced points.One thing I might add is this: Has Super Rugby become too disconnected from Test level and doesn't provide the experience and exposure to pressure needed?
Yes I think it has,No SA has had a dramatic impact on SR In my Opinion..
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
Brendon McCullum (a man with relevant previous experience in a critical leadership role) voiced his views on the radio a few months back.
He reckoned that clearly Foster wants to be mates with his players, and doesn't have the ruthless streak to lay down the law or dump players who don't perform. And doesn't appear to have a coherent plan, or the ability to change things up when something isn't working.I would tend to agree this seems like an area of real weakness. If you look at his refusal to drop those that aren't showing form (Codie Taylor, George Bridge, TJP, Patrick Tuipulotu, Brayden Ennor etc) it's a worrying trend. He's picking the same players that were being picked in 2019 under Hansen with the odd exception (Akira, Will Jordan). And some of the newer players he does pick hardly ever get to play despite showing promise (Tupou Vaai, Sotutu etc).
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@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Thanks I appreciate the response and a very interesting well balanced one.
As you know I am not a Foster Fan really for all the negative reasons you outlined in your post.I would like him replaced.
But I take on board the other things you have said as they are good balanced points.One thing I might add is this: Has Super Rugby become too disconnected from Test level and doesn't provide the experience and exposure to pressure needed?
Yes I think it has,No SA has had a dramatic impact on SR In my Opinion..
it predated that. Since 2015 (and the ill fated and poxy Super 18) the quality has plummetted. Super 18 was 2016/17. The administrators were crappy then, and they are crappy now. Once you wreck the quality of a comp, you can't get it back easily at all.
Losing the SA teams will prove problematic for both of us in the medium term I suspect. You have to play the best to be the best -- and we all lose out without the games.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
And some of the newer players he does pick hardly ever get to play despite showing promise (Tupou Vaai, Sotutu etc).
TBF, I think Sotutu has been given plenty of game time and Vaia is probably being eased in. And he's given other new players plenty of time on the pitch as well.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
@victor-meldrew said in All Blacks 2021:
@chris said in All Blacks 2021:
Thanks I appreciate the response and a very interesting well balanced one.
As you know I am not a Foster Fan really for all the negative reasons you outlined in your post.I would like him replaced.
But I take on board the other things you have said as they are good balanced points.One thing I might add is this: Has Super Rugby become too disconnected from Test level and doesn't provide the experience and exposure to pressure needed?
Yes I think it has,No SA has had a dramatic impact on SR In my Opinion..
it predated that. Since 2015 (and the ill fated and poxy Super 18) the quality has plummetted. Super 18 was 2016/17. The administrators were crappy then, and they are crappy now. Once you wreck the quality of a comp, you can't get it back easily at all.
Losing the SA teams will prove problematic for both of us in the medium term I suspect. You have to play the best to be the best -- and we all lose out without the games.
I agree. and as @chris said, the loss of SA last year or so has maybe compounded the problem.
Too much focus on successful Super Rugby teams and not enough on the state of the game in NZ Rugby in general?
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@nostrildamus said in All Blacks 2021:
@bones said in All Blacks 2021:
@nostrildamus keeps his shoes on, innit
Good eye for detail, but devout Buddhist monks go barefoot (like Buddha).
My eye for detail also noted that I never said anything about a monk...
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
Losing the SA teams will prove problematic for both of us in the medium term I suspect. You have to play the best to be the best -- and we all lose out without the games.
The best? Look at how poorly the SA franchises are performing in the URC & how many SR titles have they won since 2010?
People are quick to cite the Aussie sides getting belted every weekend when the Saffers had an even worse Super win-record & qualification record for the playoffs.
The South African record in SR was quite honestly abysmal. For a country that prides itself on it's rugby prowess, their franchises were terrible and what they achieved was embarrassing.
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) but cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
And pretty much everything Foster says re: the performance of the AB's in that article (regarding the current absence of SA teams) feels like he's saying nothing. Of course it's a negative to be playing less diverse opposition. It's not the first, second, or tenth thing I would even look at though.
And to a large extent... It's not really even true because Super matches against South African teams tended to have pretty similar amounts of running rugby to other games. If anything, a lot of the local derbies felt tighter and more physical.
The SA teams don't even add to the URC (look at their position in the current standings) but then they didn't to SR either.
The way the All Blacks have been beaten in the last ten years hasn’t changed. Everyone knows what to do and how to do it. Some teams can execute that game plan.
Our coaches have just got lazy and complacent relying on player talent to carry the lack of game plan & tactical nous. The rest is just making excuses.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
So I understand your point - but I really enjoyed having them in the comp, and will miss them.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
The South African record in SR was quite honestly abysmal. For a country that prides itself on it's rugby prowess, their franchises were terrible and what they achieved was embarrassing.
I agree. Yet they have won as many RWC's as us
You make a strong argument that any connection between coaching success at Super Rugby and Test level is tenuous at best.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
So I understand your point - but I really enjoyed having them in the comp, and will miss them.
That this needs pointing out is testament to some of the recent shit being posted on here (and separate from the fact that they would have been very strong if we had stayed with the original Super 12).
Don't get me wrong, I've been loving it, because January is a bit boring and it has kept me coming back.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
That appears to be something we learnt easily. We dominated them in SR.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@nzzp said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
They hardly brought a lot of value to Super Rugby (except diversity) besides cheating officials and corrupt administrators.
I don't agree. They brought huge physicality to the game, and a different style of play for people and teams to adapt to. They forced us to learn how to travel long distances and play well. They made us develop different game plans to win at altitude.
That appears to be something we learnt easily. We dominated them in SR.
Not away.
The Saders (mostly) did, but quite a few teams really struggled over there. According to the excellent work of @Duluth here the stats look like this against the four teams that went most of the way through.
Even the Saders had a losing record against one side (Bulls) away and the Landers were running at about 33%. The Blues were the Sharks’ bitches for many years.
Win % of kiwi teams versus SA Teams away
Stormers
Crusaders 54%
Chiefs 50%
Blues 45%
Landers 36%
Canes 30%Bulls
Canes 55%
Landers 50%
Crusaders 43%
Blues 33%
Chiefs 30%Lions
Saders 75%
Canes 64%
Blues 63%
Chiefs 50%
Landers 23%Sharks
Saders 67%
Chiefs 40%
Canes 40%
Landers 30%
Blues 18%Edit: The numbers mostly get worse of you limit it to away games since 2010. For example the Landers versus the Lions away lost the lot, as they did against the Stormers (25% against the Sharks). The Canes also lost the lot (4 games) against the stormers away. Blues lost 4 in a row against the Sharks away. Only the Chiefs and Saders really put up a good fight during that time.
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@gt12 Nice, now do the opposite. Their win percentage on the road in comparison.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 Nice, now do the opposite. Their win percentage on the road in comparison.
I'm not arguing that we didn't dominate them here, but that isn't my argument
nor the one made above.Their teams struggled to travel, but we gots lots out of learning to play them there and deal with their conditions.
That was the argument made above and I believe that the stats above show that playing SA teams in SA was a different beast to smashing them here.
Similarly, the All Blacks run 48% against the Springboks away and 71% at home.
Edit: BTW, the Blues had a losing record against the sharks at home too
Edit edit: As the did the Landers
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@gt12 you might be surprised to learn that the SA franchises boasted a worse success rate than Aussie sides in NZ. And if I remember correctly it wasn't even close either. The overall stats for the SA sides in more recent times (especially from around 2015-16 onwards) makes for embarrassing reading, there's little point denying that.
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@kiwi_expat said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 you might be surprised to learn that the SA franchises boasted a worse success rate than Aussie sides in NZ. And if I remember correctly it wasn't even close either. The overall stats for the SA sides in more recent times (especially from around 2015-16 onwards) makes for particularly embarrassing reading, there's little point denying that.
Neat. Again, not my argument
nor the one made above.We kick the ass of the Springboks 77% of the time here, but when we play them there, they have been more more likely to win.
Edit: @antipodean is right that since the professional era we are more likely to beat them there. We have a losing record at Ellis Park during that time though and some others that have only had single tests (Rustenburg and Nelson Mandela Stadium).
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@gt12 said in All Blacks 2021:
@antipodean said in All Blacks 2021:
@gt12 Nice, now do the opposite. Their win percentage on the road in comparison.
I'm not arguing that we didn't dominate them here, but that isn't my argument, nor the one made above.
I believe it is. They didn't display a marked difference in style of play on the road, nor a different level of physicality. Playing at home has its advantages but overall we dominated them.
Their teams struggled to travel, but we gots lots out of learning to play them there and deal with their conditions.
That was the argument made above and I believe that the stats above show that playing SA teams in SA was a different beast to smashing them here.
Similarly, the All Blacks run 48% against the Springboks away and 71% at home.
I'd ignore the pre-professional era. 1996 to now we beat them in South Africa more than they beat us.
Edit: BTW, the Blues had a losing record against the sharks at home too
Yeah, they were shit for a long time.
