All Blacks 2021
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@kiwibloke the difference is he learnt, slowly but he learnt, you'd be hard pressed to argue the teams that came through post 2007 weren't some of the best...ever...anywhere
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke the difference is he learnt, slowly but he learnt, you'd be hard pressed to argue the teams that came through post 2007 weren't some of the best...ever...anywhere
Yeah, he finally learnt - but why try something that was never going to work anyway ? ...Henry had so many great players in his team over those periods, like McCaw, Carter, etc.
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@kiwibloke i think we didn't really know rotating that much wouldn't work until he tried it, at the time i remember thinking it could be amazing, to have effectively 2 full teams of world class level? wow!..... its easy to look back now and claim to have known all along
thats why im more critical of fozzie, he seems to be trying to do it again but this time we have already seen it fail...and that was with better players
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I don't think the rotation policy was necessarily a problem... but 12 to 18 months out from a world cup, you probably want to be deciding who your top lineup is and playing them together most games so they have a level of familiarity. Sometimes I feel like we need to be a little more willing to give players a good chance, rather than just the odd game against Argentina.
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Never thought Henry was a great coach
You're a tough marker if Henry doesn't make it as a great coach if you go by his resume.
Even taking out his All Black days his resume is seriously impressive.
- 4 NPC titles in a row in the 90s
- 2 Super Rugby titles + extra time final loss in 3 seasons as Blues head coach
- 11 straight wins as Wales coach including first ever win over Springboks
- Came within a whisker of beating World Champion Wallabies in 2001 as coach of the Lions. That Wallabies team was the best team in the world (Rod Macqueen stepped down after that series). He didn't win the series but not all Lions series are equal - that 2001 Wallabies side was better than a lot of other sides the Lions have toured against (2017 ABs, 2013 Wallabies etc)
- Assistant coach for NPC title (2002)
- Assistant coach for Blues title (2003)
- Assistant coach for NPC title (2018)
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke i think we didn't really know rotating that much wouldn't work until he tried it, at the time i remember thinking it could be amazing, to have effectively 2 full teams of world class level? wow!..... its easy to look back now and claim to have known all along
thats why im more critical of fozzie, he seems to be trying to do it again but this time we have already seen it fail...and that was with better players
Rotating a heap of players is always going to result in a real lack of continuity/cohesion in any team sport, especially in rugby where combinations are so vital - also doesn't matter how much depth any country has in their main sport, your first choice team is always going to be a fair bit better than your next best team you select... so reckon it's far better to feed players into the AB squad that deserve it on merit.
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@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
Never thought Henry was a great coach
You're a tough marker if Henry doesn't make it as a great coach if you go by his resume.
Even taking out his All Black days his resume is seriously impressive.
- 4 NPC titles in a row in the 90s
- 2 Super Rugby titles + extra time final loss in 3 seasons as Blues head coach
- 11 straight wins as Wales coach including first ever win over Springboks
- Came within a whisker of beating World Champion Wallabies in 2001 as coach of the Lions. That Wallabies team was the best team in the world (Rod Macqueen stepped down after that series). He didn't win the series but not all Lions series are equal - that 2001 Wallabies side was better than a lot of other sides the Lions have toured against (2017 ABs, 2013 Wallabies etc)
- Assistant coach for NPC title (2002)
- Assistant coach for Blues title (2003)
- Assistant coach for NPC title (2018)
And you think that had nothing to do with the players he had in his squads ? especially for the ABs.
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@kiwibloke ...that list excludes the ab's...as @KiwiMurph said
and nowhere did he say it had nothing to do with the players, but conversely Fozzie has a couple of world players of the year at his disposal and hasn;t done as well....OR if we're going to say the players play the biggest role then we cant hang 2007 on henry and rotation....cant have it both ways
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@bobily2 said in All Blacks 2021:
I don't think the rotation policy was necessarily a problem... but 12 to 18 months out from a world cup, you probably want to be deciding who your top lineup is and playing them together most games so they have a level of familiarity. Sometimes I feel like we need to be a little more willing to give players a good chance, rather than just the odd game against Argentina.
Changing plenty of players each game outside RWCs is still going to cause cohesion problems in the other matches too... you never give a bloke a chance, he has to earn on form in the Super Rugby comp etc.
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@bobily2 said in All Blacks 2021:
I don't think the rotation policy was necessarily a problem... but 12 to 18 months out from a world cup, you probably want to be deciding who your top lineup is and playing them together most games so they have a level of familiarity. Sometimes I feel like we need to be a little more willing to give players a good chance, rather than just the odd game against Argentina.
Changing plenty of players each game outside RWCs is still going to cause cohesion problems in the other matches too... you never give a bloke a chance, he has to earn on form in the Super Rugby comp etc.
I'm not suggesting we pick random players who don't deserve a chance. I also don't think we can do rotation as Graham Henry was doing it, and expect to win. Test rugby has moved on. I just think we want to give the wider AB squad more of a chance against top-level opposition e.g. Taukeiaho played well against Argentina and off the bench against the top teams, but never got a start against those top-level teams. It might've been good to give Tupou Vaii more of a chance, rather than Patrick Tuipulotu - as we knew what Tuipulotu was going to bring. But Ian Foster seems very set on those positions.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke ...that list excludes the ab's...as @KiwiMurph said
and nowhere did he say it had nothing to do with the players, but conversely Fozzie has a couple of world players of the year at his disposal and hasn;t done as well....OR if we're going to say the players play the biggest role then we cant hang 2007 on henry and rotation....cant have it both ways
What I'm saying is without all those class players for the ABs how good would Henry's record be ? ...look back at the hold onto the ball policy no matter where they were on the field, to keep holding onto the ball a couple of metres out from your own goal line is mindless, naturally you never stuff around deep in your own territory, you exit as quick as possible.
You can't compare Foster to any other coach we have had, as every knows he is an incompetent pillock as a head coach, which says a lot about the current NZRU Board too.
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@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
What I'm saying is without all those class players for the ABs how good would Henry's record be ?
You could say that with a lot of coaches. Henry had a lot of success outside of the ABs - which is what I was pointing out in my earlier post.
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@bobily2 said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
@bobily2 said in All Blacks 2021:
I don't think the rotation policy was necessarily a problem... but 12 to 18 months out from a world cup, you probably want to be deciding who your top lineup is and playing them together most games so they have a level of familiarity. Sometimes I feel like we need to be a little more willing to give players a good chance, rather than just the odd game against Argentina.
Changing plenty of players each game outside RWCs is still going to cause cohesion problems in the other matches too... you never give a bloke a chance, he has to earn on form in the Super Rugby comp etc.
I'm not suggesting we pick random players who don't deserve a chance. I also don't think we can do rotation as Graham Henry was doing it, and expect to win. Test rugby has moved on. I just think we want to give the wider AB squad more of a chance against top-level opposition e.g. Taukeiaho played well against Argentina and off the bench against the top teams, but never got a start against those top-level teams. It might've been good to give Tupou Vaii more of a chance, rather than Patrick Tuipulotu - as we knew what Tuipulotu was going to bring. But Ian Foster seems very set on those positions.
Yeah, good point, if a player performs well off the bench he deserves a start, especially against one of the top team to see if he can handle that real mental pressure.
Always thought Tuipulotu was a bit of a plodder, with the fast pace game the ABs play we really want more athletic & better ball playing skilled locks than him. -
@kiwimurph said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke said in All Blacks 2021:
What I'm saying is without all those class players for the ABs how good would Henry's record be ?
You could say that with a lot of coaches. Henry had a lot of success outside of the ABs - which is what I was pointing out in my earlier post.
Yeah, he had a lot of success outside the ABs... my point though is a coach with more insight than Henry would've got the ABs to perform better consistently.
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@kiwibloke do you think there are a lot of coaches out there that could have improved on a 85% win rate...and thats including seasons like 2009 when we lost 4
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke do you think there are a lot of coaches out there that could have improved on a 85% win rate...and thats including seasons like 2009 when we lost 4
Reckon they could have improve a bit percentage wise - but clearly not by too much, as said it comes back to the great pool of players he had... what annoys me about coaches is some really dumb things they try, that you know are poor options & are never going to work.
Lets face it Henry had some real howlers tactic wise. -
This thing just proves what I was saying, the easiest thing to do is judge coaches on what suits the particular poster's argumant.
If you someone decides thay don't like Henry or Hansen, if it pointed out that they have record breaking results as coaches it is whiped out as ahh but they had probably the best players/team in history (and no argument) probably 7-8 of the team would make a world XV in most years they were there. And so Foster has at most 2-3 players that would make a world team, and has best results in year is considered an idiot.
I not arguing who is best or worst,(as I really don't know) but if Henry and Hansen were so ordinary as coaches by all means say who the better AB coaches are or have been, and why?
I genuinely want to know how posters judge coaches. Is it what you read in the papers or on the net? Just for the record I was at a lunch with Tana Umaga speaking in Brisbane, and he was most impressed with Henry as a coach, and I know he was just an All Black captain what would he know! Also at another one that Grant Fox was at and had quite a session with him after, it was most illuminating hearing his ideas etc on player rotation. Some players books I have read a bit of an eyeopener on the effects of too much rugby on bodies etc are, found Sam Warburton's real interesting! Also on what was happening to Ben Smith getting towards end of season and why he was rested, much to everyone's digust! -
@kiwibloke we have always been told coaching the ABs is easy cos of our cattle, way we played the past 2 years or so shows that ain't true.
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@kiwiwomble said in All Blacks 2021:
@kiwibloke the difference is he learnt, slowly but he learnt, you'd be hard pressed to argue the teams that came through post 2007 weren't some of the best...ever...anywhere
Even before 2007 we had some absolutely joke teams - 2005 and 2006 were really unbelievable squads and, in many ways, strong that subsequent teams interns of the depth in quality. It's still remarkable we didn't win 2007 when you look at the 2 years prior and what happened after
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