Nonu
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="535014" data-time="1445904509">
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<p>Serious question: Will he go down in AB folklore as a better player than his hero Tana Umaga?<br><br>
Tana obviously had the captaincy in his favour but as a player the argument can be made than Ma'a edges him.</p>
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<p>In folklore Tana probably goes down as the greater character due to the captaincy, the O'Driscoll incident and aftermath, Grand Slam and the cheerleader effect with Cullen and Lomu.</p>
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<p>Tana has always been the toughest All Black to evaluate for me. It's always tough to find players historically or currently with a similar resume.</p>
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<p>I don't ever think Tana was the best outside back in the team, nor was he the conclusively the best player in the world in his position. Nonu was both at times. For me Nonu was the better player by a decent margin. The fact he not only kept SBW out of the team, but he was never genuinely threatened for the position speaks volumes to his ability.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="535067" data-time="1445907959"><p>Tana did genuinely excel in two positions which is a string to the bow.....</p></blockquote>
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Did he? I thought he was an okay centre/2nd 5, but nothing like what he showed as a winger. Despite being in there with Lomu and Cullen, he was IMO in his own right a world class winger. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="MN5" data-cid="535067" data-time="1445907959"><p>Tana did genuinely excel in two positions which is a string to the bow.....</p></blockquote>And as captain he had a crucial role in helping the new GH cartel gain widespread acceptance IIRC
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535076" data-time="1445908559"><p>As a centre can you genuinely say he was a head above his contemporaries like Mortlock, O'Driscoll & Fleck? You wouldn't fault anyone for having that quarter in any particular order.</p></blockquote>
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I guess Nonu stands alone at 12 although cases can be made for Giteau, Roberts and Fofana and young fellas like Henshaw and De Allende look the goods for the future too. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535060" data-time="1445907514">
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<p>In folklore Tana probably goes down as the greater character due to the captaincy, the O'Driscoll incident and aftermath, Grand Slam and the cheerleader effect with Cullen and Lomu.</p>
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<p>Tana has always been the toughest All Black to evaluate for me. It's always tough to find players historically or currently with a similar resume.</p>
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<p><strong>I don't ever think Tana was the best outside back in the team,</strong> nor was he the conclusively the best player in the world in his position. Nonu was both at times. For me Nonu was the better player by a decent margin. The fact he not only kept SBW out of the team, but he was never genuinely threatened for the position speaks volumes to his ability.</p>
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<p>I think he was the form outside back through most of 1999. I guess that means best. But when you consider that Cullen, Wilson and Lomu were contenders for best outside back in the world during that era then the fact that Tana was up there speaks volumes to his abilities.</p>
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<p>I think Tana's value as a 13 is underestimated. He turned what was a poor area for the ABs after Bunce's departure to one of strength. I think he's underrated as a centre in part because of Smith's longevity in the role.</p>
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<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535076" data-time="1445908559">
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<p>As a centre can you genuinely say he was a head above his contemporaries like Mortlock, O'Driscoll & Fleck? You wouldn't fault anyone for having that quarter in any particular order.</p>
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<p>Above Fleck, easily comparable with Mortlock and at times better than BoD. But as you note, that's a strong list so it's no shame not to be top of it. </p>
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<p>At any rate, I love Nonu, he's awesome, and how lucky was it for him that McAlister and Mauger buggered off when they did - either one of those two stay and he might have had a 20 test AB career.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="voodoo" data-cid="535069" data-time="1445908222">
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<p>Tana the better defender</p>
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<p>No way. Nonu is a fucking ace defender - his workrate on defence is phenomenal these days. Tana better at turnovers, but Nonu's accuracy and ability to read the play combined with his determination to keep knocking bodies easily puts him above most.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="535167" data-time="1445936032"><p>No way. Nonu is a fucking ace defender - his workrate on defence is phenomenal these days. Tana better at turnovers, but Nonu's accuracy and ability to read the play combined with his determination to keep knocking bodies easily puts him above most.</p></blockquote>
Nah, too many times he has been caught on bad reads for mine. Smith's organisation vital to Nonu's defense. Don't get me wrong, I love nonu and can be convinced to vote for him in the better player award - but not better defender. -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="voodoo" data-cid="535170" data-time="1445936152">
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<p>Nah, too many times he has been caught on bad reads for mine. Smith's organisation vital to Nonu's defense. Don't get me wrong, I love nonu and can be convinced to vote for him in the better player award - but not better defender.</p>
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<p>Ahhh....you're from Wainui huh? :)</p> -
<p>I cant believe what a great player Nonu has become , </p>
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<p>I can remember not wanting him near the black jersey , and now he is one of my all time favourite players , </p>
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<p>If i was picking my all time best AB team in my time watching , he is playing 12 . </p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="535167" data-time="1445936032">
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<p>No way. Nonu is a fucking ace defender - his workrate on defence is phenomenal these days. Tana better at turnovers, but Nonu's accuracy and ability to read the play combined with his determination to keep knocking bodies easily puts him above most.</p>
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<p>Over their entire careers Umaga shades Nonu for me. Nonu's biggest weakness has always been coming out of the defensive line too early and often missing his man. He doesn't do this much anymore (experience) and has become an excellent defender. The defensive responsibilities of a 12 vs 13 are quite different so it's hard to make a direct comparison.</p>
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<p>I wrote this before reading Voodoo's post.</p> -
<p>I thought Tana was more of a warrior in defense , and i tend to agree defending at 13 is a bit more complex , but Nonu is fine , some issues earlier in his career with reads when he played mostly 13 , but solid as a rock now , </p>
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<p>As attacking midfield players , i think nonu is far more intimidating to the opposition </p> -
<p>Easily the best ASB 12 I've seen. Complete package, passes beautifully, kicks well, strong, fast.</p>
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<p>I don't have any issue "hating" on him early on. He was poor 2003-2007. Big & fast but terrible decision makling, bad handling, lacked accuracy, couldn't distribute. Not rating him then isn't "hating" him, its looking at a player & accurately judging they need to do better. Which he did. People often talk about coming round to liking a player. I haven't come round to liking Nonu, he matured into the best 12 in NZ history. To imply he was always outstanding people just missed it ignores the enoromous amount of work the guy did to get there. Far too many players - especially big fast ones - never develop, they think they are the finished product. Nonu clearly worked like a madman (esp. post 2007) to get where he is.</p>
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<p>Re Umaga. As others have said, there's a lot "non rugby" stuff there when analysising him. He is outstanding on camera, hugely likable, has the whole warm fluffy 1st Samoan captain thing going on, was seen as the guy steadying the ship at a tricky time (bit like Piri in 2011, only for longer) it forms a bit of a halo.</p>
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<p>Agree he was a better wing than a centre, just got unlucky with his timing. Very, very good centre but his long flat distributing to either side was missing, great short passing game, but he lacked the ability to consistently throw flat skips the way Nonu does. Also he lost a lot of pace late on, towards the end he was easier to defend against as he only really had the step inside as the burn on the outside option was gone. Nonu has retained the outside pace. As did O'Driscoll. And thats priceless in a centre.</p>
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<p>On Nonus defence. He misses a lot of inside shoulder tackles. As Wayne Smith noted a while back, that's not neccesarily bad. It looks bad on a stats sheet, but from a team point of view its actually a positive. </p> -
<p>nonu is a shitloads better midfielder than tana ever was. tana was a great footy player, but not a great midfielder - more a guy you need on the field, somewhere.</p>
<p>on his defence, nonu does miss tackles, but they are almost never costly. they are typically tackles where he gets up quick, closes the outside attacking option down, and generally clips a guy slowing him down but falling off on his outside so he is a sitting duck for the cover. a missed tackle statistically, but a prevented attacking opportunity.</p>
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<p>a complete player. it's got to be fucking depressing for all the smaller, supposedly skillful / vision / distributing '2nd 10' type 12s when this massive brick shithouse does all the things you're meant to be good at better than you, while still being able to pick you up by your ankles and shake the lunch money out of your pockets.</p> -
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="535189" data-time="1445939908">
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<p>nonu is a shitloads better midfielder than tana ever was. tana was a great footy player, but not a great midfielder - more a guy you need on the field, somewhere.</p>
<p>on his defence, nonu does miss tackles, but they are almost never costly. they are typically tackles where he gets up quick, closes the outside attacking option down, and generally clips a guy slowing him down but falling off on his outside so he is a sitting duck for the cover. a missed tackle statistically, but a prevented attacking opportunity.</p>
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<p>a complete player.<strong> it's got to be fucking depressing for all the smaller, supposedly skillful / vision / distributing '2nd 10' type 12s when this massive brick shithouse does all the things you're meant to be good at better than you, while still being able to pick you up by your ankles and shake the lunch money out of your pockets.</strong></p>
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<p>Absolute gold, sums it up perfectly</p> -
That 2004 test vs the Boks in Saffaland when Marius Joubert scored a hatrick running through, around and over Tana sort of exposed Tana's defensive frailties as a centre.<br><br>
I always felt far more comfortable when Snakey came in and shored up the defence at centre. Not a slight on Tana as an overall footy player and his mana, but I liked him on the wing better.
