Nonu

Bovidae

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="535167" data-time="1445936032">
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No way. Nonu is a fucking ace defender - his workrate on defence is phenomenal these days. Tana better at turnovers, but Nonu's accuracy and ability to read the play combined with his determination to keep knocking bodies easily puts him above most.
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Over their entire careers Umaga shades Nonu for me. Nonu's biggest weakness has always been coming out of the defensive line too early and often missing his man. He doesn't do this much anymore (experience) and has become an excellent defender. The defensive responsibilities of a 12 vs 13 are quite different so it's hard to make a direct comparison.
 
I wrote this before reading Voodoo's post.

kiwiinmelb

I thought Tana was more of a warrior in defense , and i tend to agree defending at 13 is a bit more complex , but Nonu is fine , some issues earlier in his career with reads when he played mostly 13 , but solid as a rock now , 
 
As attacking midfield players , i think nonu is far more intimidating to the opposition

gollum

Easily the best ASB 12 I've seen. Complete package, passes beautifully, kicks well, strong, fast.
 
I don't have any issue "hating" on him early on. He was poor 2003-2007. Big & fast but terrible decision makling, bad handling, lacked accuracy, couldn't distribute. Not rating him then isn't "hating" him, its looking at a player & accurately judging they need to do better. Which he did. People often talk about coming round to liking a player. I haven't come round to liking Nonu, he matured into the best 12 in NZ history. To imply he was always outstanding people just missed it ignores the enoromous amount of work the guy did to get there. Far too many players - especially big fast ones - never develop, they think they are the finished product. Nonu clearly worked like a madman (esp. post 2007) to get where he is.
 
Re Umaga. As others have said, there's a lot "non rugby" stuff there when analysising him. He is outstanding on camera, hugely likable, has the whole warm fluffy 1st Samoan captain thing going on, was seen as the guy steadying the ship at a tricky time (bit like Piri in 2011, only for longer) it forms a bit of a halo.
 
Agree he was a better wing than a centre, just got unlucky with his timing. Very, very good centre but his long flat distributing to either side was missing, great short passing game, but he lacked the ability to consistently throw flat skips the way Nonu does. Also he lost a lot of pace late on, towards the end he was easier to defend against as he only really had the step inside as the burn on the outside option was gone. Nonu has retained the outside pace. As did O'Driscoll. And thats priceless in a centre.
 
On Nonus defence. He misses a lot of inside shoulder tackles. As Wayne Smith noted a while back, that's not neccesarily bad. It looks bad on a stats sheet, but from a team point of view its actually a positive.

reprobate

nonu is a shitloads better midfielder than tana ever was. tana was a great footy player, but not a great midfielder - more a guy you need on the field, somewhere.
on his defence, nonu does miss tackles, but they are almost never costly. they are typically tackles where he gets up quick, closes the outside attacking option down, and generally clips a guy slowing him down but falling off on his outside so he is a sitting duck for the cover. a missed tackle statistically, but a prevented attacking opportunity.
 
a complete player. it's got to be fucking depressing for all the smaller, supposedly skillful / vision / distributing '2nd 10' type 12s when this massive brick shithouse does all the things you're meant to be good at better than you, while still being able to pick you up by your ankles and shake the lunch money out of your pockets.

voodoo

Can't seem to quote you or use any emoticons Bones, but there would have been a smiley at the end of this...the answer is Palmy, dunno if that's better or worse than Wainui!!!

TeWaio

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="535189" data-time="1445939908">
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nonu is a shitloads better midfielder than tana ever was. tana was a great footy player, but not a great midfielder - more a guy you need on the field, somewhere.
on his defence, nonu does miss tackles, but they are almost never costly. they are typically tackles where he gets up quick, closes the outside attacking option down, and generally clips a guy slowing him down but falling off on his outside so he is a sitting duck for the cover. a missed tackle statistically, but a prevented attacking opportunity.
 
a complete player. it's got to be fucking depressing for all the smaller, supposedly skillful / vision / distributing '2nd 10' type 12s when this massive brick shithouse does all the things you're meant to be good at better than you, while still being able to pick you up by your ankles and shake the lunch money out of your pockets.
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Absolute gold, sums it up perfectly

ACT Crusader

That 2004 test vs the Boks in Saffaland when Marius Joubert scored a hatrick running through, around and over Tana sort of exposed Tana's defensive frailties as a centre. 
I always felt far more comfortable when Snakey came in and shored up the defence at centre. Not a slight on Tana as an overall footy player and his mana, but I liked him on the wing better.

Victor Meldrew

The best AB 12 i've seen and his performance against Oz at Eden Park this year is one of the best displays by a midfielder I've had the privelidge to watch.
 
It's the way he uses his skill and power plus his thinking and calmness which has made him so good. The way he set BB up for that try in the semi against SA by pausing and feinting coming inside to take out 2 Boks can only be described as cerebral.
 
Example is against ireland in 2013 when the ball was bobbling alomg the ground and he waited for it to come to him before picking it up - rather than rush forward - chooses the right angle to take out 3 Irish players and recycles the ball quickly, 2 passes later Crotty

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I love his attitude to the game and his interaction with opposition after the final whistle. As Fitzy commented "Nonu is very old school" Amen to that.

Bones

He used to shit me to tears prior to '07 with his "too cool" attitude as well. For example, he'd drop a ball, then just stop playing, without even bothering what else was going on (i.e. the opposition snapping up the ball and carving downfield).
 
Now you couldn't find a guy more devoted to the competition across the park.
 
Obviously him coming up against a staunch HOBM midfield defence in '06 and breaking his thumb gave him some time out to reconsider where his career was going. You're welcome.

canefan

He used to be a big time penalty magnet at super level, less so with the ABs but now he is very disciplined

Mick Gold Coast QLD

I was a fan of Tana Umaga (and Rodney and Piri - the Hurricanes really) right from the jump and I saw Ma'a Nonu as another of Tana's successful projects. When he departed the Hurricanes in '07 he left the ongoing work in the capable hands of Conrad Smith who finished his work only about two years ago. Ma'a is a product of these two exceptionally skillful players who moonlighted as very good teachers.
 
Even in '07 Nonu was still as Gollum describes at 07:47pm:
 
"Big & fast but terrible decision makling, bad handling, lacked accuracy, couldn't distribute."
 
Long ago I reckoned one could not select Nonu without Conrad Smith outside him to keep him on track. In the years that followed I said one would be mad to not select them as a pair and only as pair, their synergy is that outstanding. There were several years when, with Cory Jane, they were simply pretty to watch.
 
Watching the Hurricanes get pulled apart was no fun for me - I didn't know much of the underlying politics but it really was depressing seeing the combination of so many good players rent asunder. (... "rent asunder" - yeah, good one Mick! :i_am_so_happy: ) I thought Nonu was finished when he ended up as a solo performer at the Blues then in Dunedin. I was, of course, delighted when he returned to his Wellington partnership with the estimable Conrad.
 
These last couple of seasons have also been a delight watching this fabulous combination working so smoothly and effectively. Nonu's skills have widened continuously during the second half of his career, to the extent that for a while he imitated Tana's role as defender bait whilst shifting the ball deftly to others. I like the sneaky little grubbers he has fashioned - I'd like them even more if was better at it! He's a lazy big bugger for whole slabs of Super XV yet he pulls out big ones every time he is on the main stage.
 
In the video up above I see his personality is much like that of one of the past two head coaches in our Club side, both NZ raised Samoan - modest, grateful for his grand good fortune, genuine, likable and amused. I've seen him and Smith interviewed together a couple of years ago and that was entertaining too. He appears to enjoy a genuine friendship with Sonny Bill Williams as well.
 
I'm not real big on comparing players from different periods. I rather judge them on the relative impact they had in their time. Walter Little and Frank Bunce were sublime, unbeatable, as dominating as Nonu and Smith. John Schuster was quick and elusive, good enough to nudge Little aside if he'd stayed with Union. Aaron Mauger excelled in his position as effortlessly as you see in Dan Carter in his.

nostrildamus

Not so sure about Mauger, I liked him at the time but in hindsight, not so much stood out.
Nonu and SBW are more than friends, bromance industrial strength.
But the reason I wrote was to disagree with you about Nonu's recent Super involvement, the last year or two at least he seems to have been putting in the effort.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="535256" data-time="1445955325">
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Not so sure about Mauger, I liked him at the time but in hindsight, not so much stood out.
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Similar to Conrad in that his play makes those around him better. In 10 years you try explaining to someone why C Smith was a legend it'll be hard -
 
"he was not very big, sort of slow, had this awful running style that made it look really hard work, no massive upper body strength, no massive hits in defence, not really any kicking game, poor acceleration - equally slow over 10m, 40m & 100m. God he was awesome"
 
What about the tats & the hair?
 
"no tats!! not even his own name or a tribal he downloaded from 'Authentic looking tribals are us'!. And the hair, dear lord the hair"
 
and yet you'd pick in at 13 over Tana, SBW, Toeava, Laulala, Ranger, Feklitoa.
 
"of course! didn't you hear what I just said! he was a legend!!"
 
Same with Mauger. He was an auto pick for most of his time - and a legend at Liecester too, yet you'd start by saying "picture a smallish guy who can't run for shit.."

nostrildamus

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="gollum" data-cid="535266" data-time="1445960942">
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Similar to Conrad in that his play makes those around him better.
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Oh yeah Mauger made Rangi at 13 look a million dollars in 2003. NEXT!

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="535267" data-time="1445964312">
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Oh yeah Mauger made Rangi at 13 look a million dollars in 2003. NEXT!
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Imagine how bad Leon would have been without Mauger there....

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="535237" data-time="1445947132">He used to shit me to tears prior to '07 with his "too cool" attitude as well. For example, he'd drop a ball, then just stop playing, without even bothering what else was going on (i.e. the opposition snapping up the ball and carving downfield). 
 
Now you couldn't find a guy more devoted to the competition across the park. 
 
Obviously him coming up against a staunch HOBM midfield defence in '06 and breaking his thumb gave him some time out to reconsider where his career was going. You're welcome.</blockquote>
 
Bones did you play against him? Sensational.

ACT Crusader

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="canefan" data-cid="535238" data-time="1445947655">He used to be a big time penalty magnet at super level, less so with the ABs but now he is very disciplined</blockquote>
 
Pre-2008 he gave away a fair few penalties in black. Loved the shoulder charge.....

ACT Crusader

When Henry was rotating the squad every test during that 05-07 period, I quite liked the 12. Mauger 13. Nonu combo when it got a run. The other combo being used was Lucky/Snakey. And then there Mils and Toeava being used also. Also Lucky was used at centre a couple of times. 
The concern early on with Nonu at centre was his defence. But he improved out of sight when Tana retired and Nonu was getting regular game time at the Canes at 12.

rotated

Did Luke ever get a serious run at Centre? I only recall the diabolical 2007 Bledisloe game where he got shoehorned in after Toeava went down on the Thursday? Maybe a couple of games against Italy or Scotland but not in a serious test surely especially with Smith underplayed.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="ACT Crusader" data-cid="535233" data-time="1445945790">
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That 2004 test vs the Boks in Saffaland when Marius Joubert scored a hatrick running through, around and over Tana sort of exposed Tana's defensive frailties as a centre. 
I always felt far more comfortable when Snakey came in and shored up the defence at centre. Not a slight on Tana as an overall footy player and his mana, but I liked him on the wing better.
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What bollocks. 
 
Lets set aside for a second that looking at one game is far from a good way to judge a player's defensive abilities. Tana was only at direct fault for one of those tries - the scrum one where he missed Joubert on a one on one tackle. The other two were not Tana's misses. In one he came in to tackle a loose forward and the ball was passed inside to Joubert and on the other Tana tackled the guy who made the break in cover.
 
Tana's defence was fine.
 
Is there another player whose playing reputation gets worse and worse as time goes on (by some fans)? We're almost at who's better between Scott Hamilton and Tana these days. :)

The Silver Fern

Nonu