Nonu

rotated

As a centre can you genuinely say he was a head above his contemporaries like Mortlock, O'Driscoll & Fleck? You wouldn't fault anyone for having that quartet in any particular order.

MN5

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535076" data-time="1445908559">As a centre can you genuinely say he was a head above his contemporaries like Mortlock, O'Driscoll & Fleck? You wouldn't fault anyone for having that quarter in any particular order.</blockquote>
 
I guess Nonu stands alone at 12 although cases can be made for Giteau, Roberts and Fofana and young fellas like Henshaw and De Allende look the goods for the future too.

Nepia

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535060" data-time="1445907514">
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In folklore Tana probably goes down as the greater character due to the captaincy, the O'Driscoll incident and aftermath, Grand Slam and the cheerleader effect with Cullen and Lomu.
 
Tana has always been the toughest All Black to evaluate for me. It's always tough to find players historically or currently with a similar resume.
 
I don't ever think Tana was the best outside back in the team, nor was he the conclusively the best player in the world in his position. Nonu was both at times. For me Nonu was the better player by a decent margin. The fact he not only kept SBW out of the team, but he was never genuinely threatened for the position speaks volumes to his ability.
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I think he was the form outside back through most of 1999. I guess that means best. But when you consider that Cullen, Wilson and Lomu were contenders for best outside back in the world during that era then the fact that Tana was up there speaks volumes to his abilities.
 
I think Tana's value as a 13 is underestimated. He turned what was a poor area for the ABs after Bunce's departure to one of strength. I think he's underrated as a centre in part because of Smith's longevity in the role.
 
 
<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="rotated" data-cid="535076" data-time="1445908559">
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As a centre can you genuinely say he was a head above his contemporaries like Mortlock, O'Driscoll & Fleck? You wouldn't fault anyone for having that quarter in any particular order.
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Above Fleck, easily comparable with Mortlock and at times better than BoD. But as you note, that's a strong list so it's no shame not to be top of it. 
 
At any rate, I love Nonu, he's awesome, and how lucky was it for him that McAlister and Mauger buggered off when they did - either one of those two stay and he might have had a 20 test AB career.

Bones

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="voodoo" data-cid="535069" data-time="1445908222">
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Tana the better defender
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No way. Nonu is a fucking ace defender - his workrate on defence is phenomenal these days. Tana better at turnovers, but Nonu's accuracy and ability to read the play combined with his determination to keep knocking bodies easily puts him above most.

voodoo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="535167" data-time="1445936032">No way. Nonu is a fucking ace defender - his workrate on defence is phenomenal these days. Tana better at turnovers, but Nonu's accuracy and ability to read the play combined with his determination to keep knocking bodies easily puts him above most.</blockquote>
Nah, too many times he has been caught on bad reads for mine. Smith's organisation vital to Nonu's defense. Don't get me wrong, I love nonu and can be convinced to vote for him in the better player award - but not better defender.

Bones

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="voodoo" data-cid="535170" data-time="1445936152">
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Nah, too many times he has been caught on bad reads for mine. Smith's organisation vital to Nonu's defense. Don't get me wrong, I love nonu and can be convinced to vote for him in the better player award - but not better defender.
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Ahhh....you're from Wainui huh? :)

kiwiinmelb

I cant believe what a great player Nonu has become , 
 
I can remember not wanting him near the black jersey , and now he is one of my all time favourite players , 
 
If i was picking my all time best AB team in my time watching , he is playing 12 .

Bovidae

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Bones" data-cid="535167" data-time="1445936032">
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No way. Nonu is a fucking ace defender - his workrate on defence is phenomenal these days. Tana better at turnovers, but Nonu's accuracy and ability to read the play combined with his determination to keep knocking bodies easily puts him above most.
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Over their entire careers Umaga shades Nonu for me. Nonu's biggest weakness has always been coming out of the defensive line too early and often missing his man. He doesn't do this much anymore (experience) and has become an excellent defender. The defensive responsibilities of a 12 vs 13 are quite different so it's hard to make a direct comparison.
 
I wrote this before reading Voodoo's post.

kiwiinmelb

I thought Tana was more of a warrior in defense , and i tend to agree defending at 13 is a bit more complex , but Nonu is fine , some issues earlier in his career with reads when he played mostly 13 , but solid as a rock now , 
 
As attacking midfield players , i think nonu is far more intimidating to the opposition

gollum

Easily the best ASB 12 I've seen. Complete package, passes beautifully, kicks well, strong, fast.
 
I don't have any issue "hating" on him early on. He was poor 2003-2007. Big & fast but terrible decision makling, bad handling, lacked accuracy, couldn't distribute. Not rating him then isn't "hating" him, its looking at a player & accurately judging they need to do better. Which he did. People often talk about coming round to liking a player. I haven't come round to liking Nonu, he matured into the best 12 in NZ history. To imply he was always outstanding people just missed it ignores the enoromous amount of work the guy did to get there. Far too many players - especially big fast ones - never develop, they think they are the finished product. Nonu clearly worked like a madman (esp. post 2007) to get where he is.
 
Re Umaga. As others have said, there's a lot "non rugby" stuff there when analysising him. He is outstanding on camera, hugely likable, has the whole warm fluffy 1st Samoan captain thing going on, was seen as the guy steadying the ship at a tricky time (bit like Piri in 2011, only for longer) it forms a bit of a halo.
 
Agree he was a better wing than a centre, just got unlucky with his timing. Very, very good centre but his long flat distributing to either side was missing, great short passing game, but he lacked the ability to consistently throw flat skips the way Nonu does. Also he lost a lot of pace late on, towards the end he was easier to defend against as he only really had the step inside as the burn on the outside option was gone. Nonu has retained the outside pace. As did O'Driscoll. And thats priceless in a centre.
 
On Nonus defence. He misses a lot of inside shoulder tackles. As Wayne Smith noted a while back, that's not neccesarily bad. It looks bad on a stats sheet, but from a team point of view its actually a positive.

reprobate

nonu is a shitloads better midfielder than tana ever was. tana was a great footy player, but not a great midfielder - more a guy you need on the field, somewhere.
on his defence, nonu does miss tackles, but they are almost never costly. they are typically tackles where he gets up quick, closes the outside attacking option down, and generally clips a guy slowing him down but falling off on his outside so he is a sitting duck for the cover. a missed tackle statistically, but a prevented attacking opportunity.
 
a complete player. it's got to be fucking depressing for all the smaller, supposedly skillful / vision / distributing '2nd 10' type 12s when this massive brick shithouse does all the things you're meant to be good at better than you, while still being able to pick you up by your ankles and shake the lunch money out of your pockets.

voodoo

Can't seem to quote you or use any emoticons Bones, but there would have been a smiley at the end of this...the answer is Palmy, dunno if that's better or worse than Wainui!!!

TeWaio

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="reprobate" data-cid="535189" data-time="1445939908">
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nonu is a shitloads better midfielder than tana ever was. tana was a great footy player, but not a great midfielder - more a guy you need on the field, somewhere.
on his defence, nonu does miss tackles, but they are almost never costly. they are typically tackles where he gets up quick, closes the outside attacking option down, and generally clips a guy slowing him down but falling off on his outside so he is a sitting duck for the cover. a missed tackle statistically, but a prevented attacking opportunity.
 
a complete player. it's got to be fucking depressing for all the smaller, supposedly skillful / vision / distributing '2nd 10' type 12s when this massive brick shithouse does all the things you're meant to be good at better than you, while still being able to pick you up by your ankles and shake the lunch money out of your pockets.
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Absolute gold, sums it up perfectly

ACT Crusader

That 2004 test vs the Boks in Saffaland when Marius Joubert scored a hatrick running through, around and over Tana sort of exposed Tana's defensive frailties as a centre. 
I always felt far more comfortable when Snakey came in and shored up the defence at centre. Not a slight on Tana as an overall footy player and his mana, but I liked him on the wing better.

Victor Meldrew

The best AB 12 i've seen and his performance against Oz at Eden Park this year is one of the best displays by a midfielder I've had the privelidge to watch.
 
It's the way he uses his skill and power plus his thinking and calmness which has made him so good. The way he set BB up for that try in the semi against SA by pausing and feinting coming inside to take out 2 Boks can only be described as cerebral.
 
Example is against ireland in 2013 when the ball was bobbling alomg the ground and he waited for it to come to him before picking it up - rather than rush forward - chooses the right angle to take out 3 Irish players and recycles the ball quickly, 2 passes later Crotty

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I love his attitude to the game and his interaction with opposition after the final whistle. As Fitzy commented "Nonu is very old school" Amen to that.

Bones

He used to shit me to tears prior to '07 with his "too cool" attitude as well. For example, he'd drop a ball, then just stop playing, without even bothering what else was going on (i.e. the opposition snapping up the ball and carving downfield).
 
Now you couldn't find a guy more devoted to the competition across the park.
 
Obviously him coming up against a staunch HOBM midfield defence in '06 and breaking his thumb gave him some time out to reconsider where his career was going. You're welcome.

canefan

He used to be a big time penalty magnet at super level, less so with the ABs but now he is very disciplined

Mick Gold Coast QLD

I was a fan of Tana Umaga (and Rodney and Piri - the Hurricanes really) right from the jump and I saw Ma'a Nonu as another of Tana's successful projects. When he departed the Hurricanes in '07 he left the ongoing work in the capable hands of Conrad Smith who finished his work only about two years ago. Ma'a is a product of these two exceptionally skillful players who moonlighted as very good teachers.
 
Even in '07 Nonu was still as Gollum describes at 07:47pm:
 
"Big & fast but terrible decision makling, bad handling, lacked accuracy, couldn't distribute."
 
Long ago I reckoned one could not select Nonu without Conrad Smith outside him to keep him on track. In the years that followed I said one would be mad to not select them as a pair and only as pair, their synergy is that outstanding. There were several years when, with Cory Jane, they were simply pretty to watch.
 
Watching the Hurricanes get pulled apart was no fun for me - I didn't know much of the underlying politics but it really was depressing seeing the combination of so many good players rent asunder. (... "rent asunder" - yeah, good one Mick! :i_am_so_happy: ) I thought Nonu was finished when he ended up as a solo performer at the Blues then in Dunedin. I was, of course, delighted when he returned to his Wellington partnership with the estimable Conrad.
 
These last couple of seasons have also been a delight watching this fabulous combination working so smoothly and effectively. Nonu's skills have widened continuously during the second half of his career, to the extent that for a while he imitated Tana's role as defender bait whilst shifting the ball deftly to others. I like the sneaky little grubbers he has fashioned - I'd like them even more if was better at it! He's a lazy big bugger for whole slabs of Super XV yet he pulls out big ones every time he is on the main stage.
 
In the video up above I see his personality is much like that of one of the past two head coaches in our Club side, both NZ raised Samoan - modest, grateful for his grand good fortune, genuine, likable and amused. I've seen him and Smith interviewed together a couple of years ago and that was entertaining too. He appears to enjoy a genuine friendship with Sonny Bill Williams as well.
 
I'm not real big on comparing players from different periods. I rather judge them on the relative impact they had in their time. Walter Little and Frank Bunce were sublime, unbeatable, as dominating as Nonu and Smith. John Schuster was quick and elusive, good enough to nudge Little aside if he'd stayed with Union. Aaron Mauger excelled in his position as effortlessly as you see in Dan Carter in his.

nostrildamus

Not so sure about Mauger, I liked him at the time but in hindsight, not so much stood out.
Nonu and SBW are more than friends, bromance industrial strength.
But the reason I wrote was to disagree with you about Nonu's recent Super involvement, the last year or two at least he seems to have been putting in the effort.

gollum

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="nostrildamus" data-cid="535256" data-time="1445955325">
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Not so sure about Mauger, I liked him at the time but in hindsight, not so much stood out.
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Similar to Conrad in that his play makes those around him better. In 10 years you try explaining to someone why C Smith was a legend it'll be hard -
 
"he was not very big, sort of slow, had this awful running style that made it look really hard work, no massive upper body strength, no massive hits in defence, not really any kicking game, poor acceleration - equally slow over 10m, 40m & 100m. God he was awesome"
 
What about the tats & the hair?
 
"no tats!! not even his own name or a tribal he downloaded from 'Authentic looking tribals are us'!. And the hair, dear lord the hair"
 
and yet you'd pick in at 13 over Tana, SBW, Toeava, Laulala, Ranger, Feklitoa.
 
"of course! didn't you hear what I just said! he was a legend!!"
 
Same with Mauger. He was an auto pick for most of his time - and a legend at Liecester too, yet you'd start by saying "picture a smallish guy who can't run for shit.."

The Silver Fern

Nonu