Cricket - best ever, trivia etc
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@Cyclops said in Modern batting averages:
I think Cairns suffered a bit because of the teams he played in. If you compare him to Colin de Grandhomme who looks like a test cricketer playing in the current team, how much better do you think Cairns would be in that role?
Same with Vettori who is Warne/Murali compared to the spinners we’ve had recently
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@MN5 Applying my same standard to the keepers - i.e. that they have to have performed batting at No. 6, Watling wins easily over BMac.
BJ is actually significantly better than his career average when he bats 6 - 46.8 vs 38.5.
BMac is like Cairnsie and falls away significantly - 28.7 vs 38.6.
Haven't checked but I'd guess BJ has a markedly better average than BMac when playing as a keeper.
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I'm late to this thread - very late.
If you look at Kane's test batting average since the start of 2014 it is
63.24 across 52 games with 18 centuries.
You could that it was only NZ's lack of depth that had him into the test team before he was really ready that stops him competing directly with Steve Smith. Having said that, Smith also started in 2010 and his test average since the start of 2014 is 71.91! (57 games, 24 tons).
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@KiwiPie said in Modern batting averages:
I'm late to this thread - very late.
If you look at Kane's test batting average since the start of 2014 it is
63.24 across 52 games with 18 centuries.
You could that it was only NZ's lack of depth that had him into the test team before he was really ready that stops him competing directly with Steve Smith. Having said that, Smith also started in 2010 and his test average since the start of 2014 is 71.91! (57 games, 24 tons).
It, unfortunately, has always been like that for little ol' NZ.
Martin Crowe admitted he was thrust in too early, still learning first-class cricket.
There is a quote I remember from Adam Parore where he said he learned to play first-class cricket by playing Test cricket.
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@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
You have to judge Cairns as an all rounder not solely a bowler or batter.
Do you judge him at his bowling and batting peaks even though they happened at different times?
Same goes for McCullum with the gloves and even Vettori.
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@rotated said in Modern batting averages:
@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
You have to judge Cairns as an all rounder not solely a bowler or batter.
Do you judge him at his bowling and batting peaks even though they happened at different times?
Same goes for McCullum with the gloves and even Vettori.
Hmmmmmmm, it's tough and like anyone you can cherry pick stats to suit an argument or rip it apart.
Solely as a seam bowler he's behind Paddles and Bond as is everyone ( and with Bond his brief career is always a factor ).......but then come the trio playing now and he's not really far behind them at all, in fact it wouldn't be a stretch to call him possibly our sixth best pace bowler ever ? ( but then guys like Simon Doull, Richard Collinge, Bruce Taylor and Dion Nash can lay claim too ) throw in his batting which is obviously head and shoulders above any of them ( only Paddles comes remotely close ) and you have an excellent cricketer who just can't be left out of an all time XI. Apparently he averaged 44 batting at seven. That'll do me.
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@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
Solely as a seam bowler he's behind Paddles and Bond as is everyone ( and with Bond his brief career is always a factor ).......but then come the trio playing now and he's not really far behind them at all, in fact it wouldn't be a stretch to call him possibly our sixth best pace bowler ever ? ( but then guys like Simon Doull, Richard Collinge, Bruce Taylor and Dion Nash can lay claim too ) throw in his batting which is obviously head and shoulders above any of them ( only Paddles comes remotely close ) and you have an excellent cricketer who just can't be left out of an all time XI. Apparently he averaged 44 batting at seven. That'll do me.
I think there is a pretty clear gap between Boult and Southee and Cairns as new ball bowlers.
The best argument for Cairns in these all time NZ XIs is assuming they are playing other countries all time XIs he had a top gear and competitiveness to where I would actually back him to score some runs against the Windies pace qaurtet or Lillee/Warne/McGrath etc or on his day or nick someone out - even if his career stats aren't overly flattering. Flintoff and Botham are similar.
On the other side of the coin you can point out Vettori averaged 40 batting at 8 all you want but against absolute top end bowling I am not confident he is making a significant contribution.
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@nzzp said in Modern batting averages:
@rotated said in Modern batting averages:
@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
But.....teams need those ‘bat for your life’ guys and he along with others I mentioned was terrific.
To bat for my life on a good day I'd take Canterbury legend Rahul Dravid... on a bad one Chris Martin looks like a good option.
it's a really good question that goes past averages, and brings in those mentally tough folk who just refuse to be beaten.
SWaugh was up there for me. Remarkable player, and the mental strength to lead a team to a new place was fantastic
on the players I'd pay to watch bat, there's Tendulkar, Lara, RIchards (by reputation) and Sehwag. Arguably Chris Martin makes the list as well ... not there for a long time
The Steve Waugh look is one of the all-time great sporting images.
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@rotated said in Modern batting averages:
@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
Solely as a seam bowler he's behind Paddles and Bond as is everyone ( and with Bond his brief career is always a factor ).......but then come the trio playing now and he's not really far behind them at all, in fact it wouldn't be a stretch to call him possibly our sixth best pace bowler ever ? ( but then guys like Simon Doull, Richard Collinge, Bruce Taylor and Dion Nash can lay claim too ) throw in his batting which is obviously head and shoulders above any of them ( only Paddles comes remotely close ) and you have an excellent cricketer who just can't be left out of an all time XI. Apparently he averaged 44 batting at seven. That'll do me.
I think there is a pretty clear gap between Boult and Southee and Cairns as new ball bowlers.
The best argument for Cairns in these all time NZ XIs is assuming they are playing other countries all time XIs he had a top gear and competitiveness to where I would actually back him to score some runs against the Windies pace qaurtet or Lillee/Warne/McGrath etc or on his day or nick someone out - even if his career stats aren't overly flattering. Flintoff and Botham are similar.
On the other side of the coin you can point out Vettori averaged 40 batting at 8 all you want but against absolute top end bowling I am not confident he is making a significant contribution.
I think he was a better player than Flintoff and Stokes ( although the latter still has time, his batting especially is impressive )
As a bowler Cairns got 13 "Michelles" in 62 tests ( only Paddles and Vettori got more ) so that's a great effort, more than Southee, Boult or Wagner but then they are competing against eachother ( Joel Garner who is an undoubted all time legend only got seven ) so pickings might be slimmer.
I don't think there's that big a gap between him and our current trio. Cairns problem was when he had to slow his pace when he got injured. He became less effective.
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If it's close between Cairns and the others then Cairns can fuck right off for being a prima donna and bringing the game into disrepute.
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@No-Quarter said in Modern batting averages:
If it's close between Cairns and the others then Cairns can fuck right off for being a prima donna and bringing the game into disrepute.
Look, I'll pile into Cairns as much as the next fella, but the high ground is a bit shaky:
Can we consider Warne or Ponting in 'best of'? PED conviction, passing on pitch information, etc.
What bout Warner + Steve Smith - ball tampering
So we exclude all of them from consideration perhaps. Now, how about the squeaky clean NZ bowling attack going at the ball in Pakistan with a bottle cap? Martin Crowe - gone, along with Pringle.
I agree that Cairns went over the line, but does that invalidate what he achieved up to that point?
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@No-Quarter said in Modern batting averages:
If it's close between Cairns and the others then Cairns can fuck right off for being a prima donna and bringing the game into disrepute.
He did this in a meaningless IPL game. There's nothing to indicate he ever did anything wrong in his Black Caps career.
@nzzp said in Modern batting averages:
@No-Quarter said in Modern batting averages:
If it's close between Cairns and the others then Cairns can fuck right off for being a prima donna and bringing the game into disrepute.
Look, I'll pile into Cairns as much as the next fella, but the high ground is a bit shaky:
Can we consider Warne or Ponting in 'best of'? PED conviction, passing on pitch information, etc.
What bout Warner + Steve Smith - ball tampering
So we exclude all of them from consideration perhaps. Now, how about the squeaky clean NZ bowling attack going at the ball in Pakistan with a bottle cap? Martin Crowe - gone, along with Pringle.
I agree that Cairns went over the line, but does that invalidate what he achieved up to that point?
Indeed, throw in Greg Chappell ( who is probably competing with Ponting and Smith for one spot in the team ) for the underarm incident too.
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I have fixing the outcome for the bookies, whether that's individual balls or the outcome of matches, at a much higher level of bringing the game into disrepute than bending rules to give your team a competitive advantage, which is common across athletes of all sports.
A meaningless IPL game for sure, but it gives the impression that it could have happened in any match, and international matches had way higher stakes so it's hard to believe it isn't happening at that level where the $$ is much higher.
Cairns getting involved in that shit and accepting money to do so means I have basically scrubbed him from the history books when it comes to all time 11s.
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@No-Quarter said in Modern batting averages:
I have fixing the outcome for the bookies, whether that's individual balls or the outcome of matches, at a much higher level of bringing the game into disrepute than bending rules to give your team a competitive advantage, which is common across athletes of all sports.
A meaningless IPL game for sure, but it gives the impression that it could have happened in any match, and international matches had way higher stakes so it's hard to believe it isn't happening at that level where the $$ is much higher.
Cairns getting involved in that shit and accepting money to do so means I have basically scrubbed him from the history books when it comes to all time 11s.
Well firstly this means you're judging the man, not the career. If that was the case I'm sure loads of all time sports teams would look pretty different given the massive number of dickheads who have been sporting legends ( as @nzzp mentions the Aussie team would lose a lot of players ) Secondly he wasn't actually convicted of match fixing ? ( although I find it extremely doubtful that he's totally squeaky clean )
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@No-Quarter It's indicative of a "I choose when and what rules apply to me" attitude that popped up consistently across his career.
Our all time Test XI already ahs a bowling allrounder and a wicketkeeping allrounder so we don't need another. We pick another specialist batsman or another specialist bowler depending on the needs of the team on the day. So the question should be is Cairns one of our top 6 batsmen of all time? No. OK is he one of our top 4 seamers of all time? Also No (IMO).
So really his disciplinary issues are a red herring as he doesn't qualify on talent.
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@dogmeat said in Modern batting averages:
@No-Quarter It's indicative of a "I choose when and what rules apply to me" attitude that popped up consistently across his career.
Our all time Test XI already ahs a bowling allrounder and a wicketkeeping allrounder so we don't need another. We pick another specialist batsman or another specialist bowler depending on the needs of the team on the day. So the question should be is Cairns one of our top 6 batsmen of all time? No. OK is he one of our top 4 seamers of all time? Also No (IMO).
So really his disciplinary issues are a red herring as he doesn't qualify on talent.
I do hear this argument. That's why loads of All Rounders have an aura that exceeds their numbers in a lot of cases. I just like the idea of a guy that can and will contribute with Bat and/or ball when needed but of the All Round legends only Sobers and Kallis could be considered batting greats and only Paddles, Imran, Keith Miller, early Botham and Pollock bowling greats.
Others probably do "enough" in each discipline. Cairns is in this echelon but his batting far exceeds that of Boult, Wags and Southee when their bowling isn't a huge deal better than his which will always be my argument for his place over them even though Boult is still in my current team alongside him, Paddles and Bond.
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For mine, batting doesn't matter that much for an all time XI other than the specialist batters. I'd pick the bowlers and keeper on their skills in those areas, not their batting prowess. Batting would be a tie break if two options were equal though. I'd pick Smith over Watling and on current stats, one of the current crop over C Cairns.
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I created the best ever XI polls for test and ODI team's 4 or 5 years ago... can't seem to find the threads - anyone?
Would certainly be a worthwhile exercise doing again, some of the current team would certainly have enhanced their cases for inclusion.
I'll try and get it organised over the next few days, unless someone else has time on their hands and wants to do it?
