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So where do you draw the line in terms of a qualification period?
The issue for me has always been what to do with the likes of Dempster, Donelly and Cowie.
Yeah they only played a handful of tests but contemporary reports make it sound like they were a class above most NZ players.
I have no issue with Kane, Crowe, Taylor for the first XI but I'm probably going the old timers for the 2nd team because basically they don't have that much competition.
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@dogmeat said in Modern batting averages:
So where do you draw the line in terms of a qualification period?
The issue for me has always been what to do with the likes of Dempster, Donelly and Cowie.
Yeah they only played a handful of tests but contemporary reports make it sound like they were a class above most NZ players.
I have no issue with Kane, Crowe, Taylor for the first XI but I'm probably going the old timers for the 2nd team because basically they don't have that much competition.
Same issue with Shane Bond. Definitely a class above any of our other bowlers except Hadlee but so frustrating in his injuries/unavailability
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It's a testament to Sir Paddles that he's probably the only NZ test player whose place is 100% assured in this type of exercise. Every other player could potentially be the subject of reasonable debate (to some extent at least), but not him.
I personally wouldn't spend very long on the batsmen at 3-5, but people could if they really wanted to.
Hadlee-love aside, who bats 6 in the all time XI? That seems to be the tough question to answer - if a specialist batsman (rather than an allrounder), is it just the best non-opener not selected yet, or a specialist middle order batsman (i.e. mostly played at 5 or 6)?
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@Godder said in Modern batting averages:
It's a testament to Sir Paddles that he's probably the only NZ test player whose place is 100% assured in this type of exercise. Every other player could potentially be the subject of reasonable debate (to some extent at least), but not him.
I personally wouldn't spend very long on the batsmen at 3-5, but people could if they really wanted to.
Hadlee-love aside, who bats 6 in the all time XI? That seems to be the tough question to answer - if a specialist batsman (rather than an allrounder), is it just the best non-opener not selected yet, or a specialist middle order batsman (i.e. mostly played at 5 or 6)?
Paddles walks in but so do ( in batting order ) Turner, KW, Crowe, Taylor and Vettori. For keepers you have to go McCullum or Watling.....one of these two probably bats six to answer your question with Cairns ( who I admit doesn’t walk in but he’s a probable ) at seven.
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@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
@Godder said in Modern batting averages:
It's a testament to Sir Paddles that he's probably the only NZ test player whose place is 100% assured in this type of exercise. Every other player could potentially be the subject of reasonable debate (to some extent at least), but not him.
I personally wouldn't spend very long on the batsmen at 3-5, but people could if they really wanted to.
Hadlee-love aside, who bats 6 in the all time XI? That seems to be the tough question to answer - if a specialist batsman (rather than an allrounder), is it just the best non-opener not selected yet, or a specialist middle order batsman (i.e. mostly played at 5 or 6)?
Paddles walks in but so do ( in batting order ) Turner, KW, Crowe, Taylor and Vettori. For keepers you have to go McCullum or Watling.....one of these two probably bats six to answer your question with Cairns ( who I admit doesn’t walk in but he’s a probable ) at seven.
Do we have any better batsmen for 6 than McCullum (McCullum's record is better than Watling's)?
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@Godder said in Modern batting averages:
@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
@Godder said in Modern batting averages:
It's a testament to Sir Paddles that he's probably the only NZ test player whose place is 100% assured in this type of exercise. Every other player could potentially be the subject of reasonable debate (to some extent at least), but not him.
I personally wouldn't spend very long on the batsmen at 3-5, but people could if they really wanted to.
Hadlee-love aside, who bats 6 in the all time XI? That seems to be the tough question to answer - if a specialist batsman (rather than an allrounder), is it just the best non-opener not selected yet, or a specialist middle order batsman (i.e. mostly played at 5 or 6)?
Paddles walks in but so do ( in batting order ) Turner, KW, Crowe, Taylor and Vettori. For keepers you have to go McCullum or Watling.....one of these two probably bats six to answer your question with Cairns ( who I admit doesn’t walk in but he’s a probable ) at seven.
Do we have any better batsmen for 6 than McCullum (McCullum's record is better than Watling's)?
The average is about the same but it comes down to what the team needs, a dasher like McCullum or a grafter like Watling ? Much of McCullums big scores came after he hung up the gloves.
I have fond memories of Smithy but he doesn’t enter the equation cos of his extremely hit or miss batting efforts ( granted his batting record was pretty typical of his era )
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@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
@Godder said in Modern batting averages:
Something that makes this tough is deciding whether to have 5 or 6 specialist batsmen. Acknowledging that he's not opening, Fleming is competing for 6-8 spots. The first 3 are almost certainly Williamson, M Crowe and Taylor. Kane and M Crowe can both bowl so the first XI might get by with 4 bowlers. The second XI would struggle to find adequate bowlers in the top order and have to select 5 bowlers.
An interesting thought - who bats 6? Just keep wedging in the best batsmen, or should it be a specialist middle order batsman?
Cairns and either Watling or McCullum bat 6/7 I reckon.
Cairnsie simply isn't good enough to bat at 6. He wasn't really good enough to bat at 6 in the teams he played in.
His overall average is 33.5, but when he batted at 6 (in 25 test innings) he only averaged 25.
If he is to make the team, then a wicket keeper has to bat at 6 and then potentially he bats at 7 and can make the grade as the 4th seamer.
But, if we play a specialist batsman at 6, then a keeper bats 7 and no way can Cairnsie make it as one of just three seamers.
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@Chris-B said in Modern batting averages:
@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
@Godder said in Modern batting averages:
Something that makes this tough is deciding whether to have 5 or 6 specialist batsmen. Acknowledging that he's not opening, Fleming is competing for 6-8 spots. The first 3 are almost certainly Williamson, M Crowe and Taylor. Kane and M Crowe can both bowl so the first XI might get by with 4 bowlers. The second XI would struggle to find adequate bowlers in the top order and have to select 5 bowlers.
An interesting thought - who bats 6? Just keep wedging in the best batsmen, or should it be a specialist middle order batsman?
Cairns and either Watling or McCullum bat 6/7 I reckon.
Cairnsie simply isn't good enough to bat at 6. He wasn't really good enough to bat at 6 in the teams he played in.
His overall average is 33.5, but when he batted at 6 (in 25 test innings) he only averaged 25.
If he is to make the team, then a wicket keeper has to bat at 6 and then potentially he bats at 7 and can make the grade as the 4th seamer.
But, if we play a specialist batsman at 6, then a keeper bats 7 and no way can Cairnsie make it as one of just three seamers.
Fair call, he bats at seven for me and makes it as a 4th seamer. As I’ve said, not good enough in this discipline alone but 13 Michelles with 5 tons thrown in there in 62 tests is a pretty handy all round return. Vettori at eight and Paddles at nine makes it a pretty strong batting unit.
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@Cyclops said in Modern batting averages:
I think Cairns suffered a bit because of the teams he played in. If you compare him to Colin de Grandhomme who looks like a test cricketer playing in the current team, how much better do you think Cairns would be in that role?
Same with Vettori who is Warne/Murali compared to the spinners we’ve had recently
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@MN5 Applying my same standard to the keepers - i.e. that they have to have performed batting at No. 6, Watling wins easily over BMac.
BJ is actually significantly better than his career average when he bats 6 - 46.8 vs 38.5.
BMac is like Cairnsie and falls away significantly - 28.7 vs 38.6.
Haven't checked but I'd guess BJ has a markedly better average than BMac when playing as a keeper.
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I'm late to this thread - very late.
If you look at Kane's test batting average since the start of 2014 it is
63.24 across 52 games with 18 centuries.
You could that it was only NZ's lack of depth that had him into the test team before he was really ready that stops him competing directly with Steve Smith. Having said that, Smith also started in 2010 and his test average since the start of 2014 is 71.91! (57 games, 24 tons).
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@KiwiPie said in Modern batting averages:
I'm late to this thread - very late.
If you look at Kane's test batting average since the start of 2014 it is
63.24 across 52 games with 18 centuries.
You could that it was only NZ's lack of depth that had him into the test team before he was really ready that stops him competing directly with Steve Smith. Having said that, Smith also started in 2010 and his test average since the start of 2014 is 71.91! (57 games, 24 tons).
It, unfortunately, has always been like that for little ol' NZ.
Martin Crowe admitted he was thrust in too early, still learning first-class cricket.
There is a quote I remember from Adam Parore where he said he learned to play first-class cricket by playing Test cricket.
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@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
You have to judge Cairns as an all rounder not solely a bowler or batter.
Do you judge him at his bowling and batting peaks even though they happened at different times?
Same goes for McCullum with the gloves and even Vettori.
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@rotated said in Modern batting averages:
@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
You have to judge Cairns as an all rounder not solely a bowler or batter.
Do you judge him at his bowling and batting peaks even though they happened at different times?
Same goes for McCullum with the gloves and even Vettori.
Hmmmmmmm, it's tough and like anyone you can cherry pick stats to suit an argument or rip it apart.
Solely as a seam bowler he's behind Paddles and Bond as is everyone ( and with Bond his brief career is always a factor ).......but then come the trio playing now and he's not really far behind them at all, in fact it wouldn't be a stretch to call him possibly our sixth best pace bowler ever ? ( but then guys like Simon Doull, Richard Collinge, Bruce Taylor and Dion Nash can lay claim too ) throw in his batting which is obviously head and shoulders above any of them ( only Paddles comes remotely close ) and you have an excellent cricketer who just can't be left out of an all time XI. Apparently he averaged 44 batting at seven. That'll do me.
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@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
Solely as a seam bowler he's behind Paddles and Bond as is everyone ( and with Bond his brief career is always a factor ).......but then come the trio playing now and he's not really far behind them at all, in fact it wouldn't be a stretch to call him possibly our sixth best pace bowler ever ? ( but then guys like Simon Doull, Richard Collinge, Bruce Taylor and Dion Nash can lay claim too ) throw in his batting which is obviously head and shoulders above any of them ( only Paddles comes remotely close ) and you have an excellent cricketer who just can't be left out of an all time XI. Apparently he averaged 44 batting at seven. That'll do me.
I think there is a pretty clear gap between Boult and Southee and Cairns as new ball bowlers.
The best argument for Cairns in these all time NZ XIs is assuming they are playing other countries all time XIs he had a top gear and competitiveness to where I would actually back him to score some runs against the Windies pace qaurtet or Lillee/Warne/McGrath etc or on his day or nick someone out - even if his career stats aren't overly flattering. Flintoff and Botham are similar.
On the other side of the coin you can point out Vettori averaged 40 batting at 8 all you want but against absolute top end bowling I am not confident he is making a significant contribution.
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@nzzp said in Modern batting averages:
@rotated said in Modern batting averages:
@MN5 said in Modern batting averages:
But.....teams need those ‘bat for your life’ guys and he along with others I mentioned was terrific.
To bat for my life on a good day I'd take Canterbury legend Rahul Dravid... on a bad one Chris Martin looks like a good option.
it's a really good question that goes past averages, and brings in those mentally tough folk who just refuse to be beaten.
SWaugh was up there for me. Remarkable player, and the mental strength to lead a team to a new place was fantastic
on the players I'd pay to watch bat, there's Tendulkar, Lara, RIchards (by reputation) and Sehwag. Arguably Chris Martin makes the list as well ... not there for a long time
The Steve Waugh look is one of the all-time great sporting images.
