The Cane vs Savea Debate
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@rotated said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Do you think we would have won had Cane's possibly marginally better tacking ability been available from the start??
If any tackling ability was available at the very start we may have won, yes.
In our two best results of the tournament, the opening round win vs SA and the QF pumping of Ireland we started with Sam Cane and Ardie Savea. Hansen outsmarted himself in the SF. Enough said
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I'm on record as not being Cane's biggest fan. And also on record as being astounded at him being left out of the XV against England.
Would it have mattered?
Fuck knows.
But I think we all know that small moments impact tight test matches. SBW isn't everyone's cup of tea, but 2 quick offloads changed that final pretty quick in 2015.
Who is to say that Cane's defence wouldn't have shut down that opening drive by England in 2019, and who the hell knows what might have have happened if he had.
Maybe they don't get their confidence up. Maybe we clear to 40m, steal a line out, and end up in their red zone putting them under the pump.
Point is that every little thing matters when its all tallied up.
Also, I've had a few drinks, and I can't remember what the gist of my point was, though I'm sure it was very important.
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@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@rotated the original retirement date of post lions should have been kept
Without Read stepping down that would have been a pretty big call to make. Especially that there were no 6s and 8s putting their hands up. He bit the bullet hard to leave out Owen Franks which given the way he fell off the cliff was probably the right call but not going all in with Read would have been a tough call. Honestly other than winning the World cup Hansen was always in a lose lose with almost every decision other than Cody Taylor, Joe Moody and Aaron Smith being open to second guessing.
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@DMX said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@rotated the original retirement date of post lions should have been kept
Without Read stepping down that would have been a pretty big call to make. Especially that there were no 6s and 8s putting their hands up. He bit the bullet hard to leave out Owen Franks which given the way he fell off the cliff was probably the right call but not going all in with Read would have been a tough call. Honestly other than winning the World cup Hansen was always in a lose lose with almost every decision other than Cody Taylor, Joe Moody and Aaron Smith being open to second guessing.
I don't think anyone is saying exclude him from the squad or even the matchday 22. But if your calculation ends up with Cane on the bench and Read starting you are using the wrong formula. Ditto leaving Laumape at home.
No doubt it would have been a big call, but not unprecedented -captains have been shit canned before. It can also be handled with class. How he made the assessment that Ben Smith was done after a random fixture in Perth, but Read/SBW weren't after two years of pretty average performances is head scratching.
All the justifications to stick with Read and others in the starting XV are the ones that usually come with bad times for the ABs - getting away from merit based selections, picking players on intangibles and holding back young bucks in favour the old guard.
Getting back to the topic I hope with Cane they have learned their lesson and the captaincy call is seen as a 2 year appointment and not one that has to make it through to the RWC at all costs. He will have had a 11 year career at the next RWC and not without injury - unless he is incredibly lucky or canny history suggests someone will be ready to take his spot.
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Are any of you pro-Cane guys daring to suggest that this focus on his tackling isn't a recent phenomenon based largely on the reaction to a single loss?
And I'm not saying his style of play is detrimental to the All Blacks, but I am convinced Savea's better compliments a well balanced All Black side.
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I distinctly remember him putting in heavy (and sometimes borderline) shots in the Dublin win post the Chicago loss. I would argue his physicality helped us that day, certainly put the fear of god into a few of their players who would've had their tails up otherwise.
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@DMX said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
Honestly other than winning the World cup Hansen was always in a lose lose with almost every decision other than Cody Taylor, Joe Moody and Aaron Smith being open to second guessing.Yeah - in the end, the 2019 RWC caught us at a low ebb.
We had a bunch of guys who'd probably hung on a bit too long in the hope of going out on a three-peat and another bunch of guys who were a bit too green for the job. And some key guys in the middle who were either injured or not at their best.
Compare the team that squeaked home in the 2015 semi with the team that was well-beaten in 2019 and there's very few from 2019 that would make a combined team. 2019 Moody over the 2015 version of himself would be the only certainty from the starting XV.
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@mofitzy_ said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
I distinctly remember him putting in heavy (and sometimes borderline) shots in the Dublin win post the Chicago loss. I would argue his physicality helped us that day, certainly put the fear of god into a few of their players who would've had their tails up otherwise.
Did the Irish players tell you he put the fear of God into them and they would have otherwise had their tails up?
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@DMX said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@rotated the original retirement date of post lions should have been kept
Without Read stepping down that would have been a pretty big call to make. Especially that there were no 6s and 8s putting their hands up.
Luatua left in 2017
Vito left after 2015Luatua was the big loss I think - but 8 was an issue (unless you could get AIoane up to speed through coaching)
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Read’s surgery and recovery was a big issue.
At that point, we didn’t have a clear understudy (Probably Squire?), so we were reliant on Read coming back and being as good as he had been.
We had lost Luatua and had a Northern squad fat on 6s and 7s (Cane, Todd, Savea), with one poor selections (Fifita), one who didn’t work out /were unlucky (Squire) plus one who was leaving (Kaino).
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@gt12 There was certainly a succession planning issue with Read, but there weren't any clear candidates either after Vito left. In saying that, Vito would have been 32 at last years' RWC. A younger 8 needed to be found. Hansen seemed to fart around trying a heap of guys at 6 but not 8.
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@rotated said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@DMX said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@Machpants said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@rotated the original retirement date of post lions should have been kept
Without Read stepping down that would have been a pretty big call to make. Especially that there were no 6s and 8s putting their hands up. He bit the bullet hard to leave out Owen Franks which given the way he fell off the cliff was probably the right call but not going all in with Read would have been a tough call. Honestly other than winning the World cup Hansen was always in a lose lose with almost every decision other than Cody Taylor, Joe Moody and Aaron Smith being open to second guessing.
I don't think anyone is saying exclude him from the squad or even the matchday 22. But if your calculation ends up with Cane on the bench and Read starting you are using the wrong formula. Ditto leaving Laumape at home.
No doubt it would have been a big call, but not unprecedented -captains have been shit canned before. It can also be handled with class. How he made the assessment that Ben Smith was done after a random fixture in Perth, but Read/SBW weren't after two years of pretty average performances is head scratching.
All the justifications to stick with Read and others in the starting XV are the ones that usually come with bad times for the ABs - getting away from merit based selections, picking players on intangibles and holding back young bucks in favour the old guard.
Getting back to the topic I hope with Cane they have learned their lesson and the captaincy call is seen as a 2 year appointment and not one that has to make it through to the RWC at all costs. He will have had a 11 year career at the next RWC and not without injury - unless he is incredibly lucky or canny history suggests someone will be ready to take his spot.
He was really professional and a great mentor for the young polynesian guys in the team.
Apparently that justified his constant selection.
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@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@gt12 There was certainly a succession planning issue with Read, but there weren't any clear candidates either after Vito left. In saying that, Vito would have been 32 at last years' RWC. A younger 8 needed to be found. Hansen seemed to fart around trying a heap of guys at 6 but not 8.
If only there had been a young guy who had been killing it in Super rugby over multiple seasons, playing for someone like the Blues, who could have been selected and given some support to iron out any small issues in their game/preparation.
Even better if that guy already had a brother in the team.That might have been handy.
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@pukunui said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@shark said in The Cane vs Savea Debate:
@gt12 There was certainly a succession planning issue with Read, but there weren't any clear candidates either after Vito left. In saying that, Vito would have been 32 at last years' RWC. A younger 8 needed to be found. Hansen seemed to fart around trying a heap of guys at 6 but not 8.
If only there had been a young guy who had been killing it in Super rugby over multiple seasons, playing for someone like the Blues, who could have been selected and given some support to iron out any small issues in their game/preparation.
Even better if that guy already had a brother in the team.That might have been handy.
Robin Brooke?
