My Latest All Blacks Quiz

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="585544" data-time="1465329208">
Wasn't there an unofficial international at the end of the tour to Ireland in 1974? Against what would otherwise be a full international but neither side awarded caps? Had me stuck on 1974 for a while ...</blockquote>
 
Yes that one has always been a puzzler especially given the opposition and the era. 
Up there with why the World XV games were granted test status (unlike BaaBaas games), and why the 1999 trial awarded caps but the 2005 trial did not for head scratchers from days past.

Immenso Rapido

I consider the 1987 tour to 'spoiler, not saying, do the quiz' to be official caps. 
To 25 years later, for some noggin in NZRU to retrospectively decide it wasn't official tests, is completely ludicrous. 
In the mean time NZ had been thrashing Tonga, Japan, Portugal, Romania over the next 25 years even putting 90 on the Argies in 1997. 
Actually, I think the NZRU should retrospectively make all these unofficial tests official. Award caps, include them in the test records/stats. Many of them were tougher matches than the ones I alluded to above.

NZRUGBYQUIZZES

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="585583" data-time="1465343678">
<div>
Actually, I think the NZRU should retrospectively make all these unofficial tests official. Award caps, include them in the test records/stats. Many of them were tougher matches than the ones I alluded to above.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
I personally agree. It seems awfully disrespectful looking back to non award caps for those games.

SabalomG

if we award test match status to unofficial test matches, will we have to say we lost a test to Rhodesia?

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="585583" data-time="1465343678">
To 25 years later, for some noggin in NZRU to retrospectively decide it wasn't official tests, is completely ludicrous. 
.. 
thrashing Tonga, Japan, Portugal, Romania over the next 25 years even putting 90 on the Argies in 1997. 
.</blockquote>
 
It wasn't retrospective. It was policy at the time. Pre 1987 Test caps were only awarded against full IRB members* ... Except for the 1974 match above where they weren't... and the odd match like Romania in 1981 and All America in 1913. 
I know 1987 tour was AFTER the RWC but it was the RWC that sparked the change by the NZRU to recognise all internationals by awarding caps, given that the rule was all RWC matches were full internationals. Which meant Italy Fiji and Argentina were full tests which they wiuld never have been previously.

- at that stage England, Scotland, Ireland, Wales, South Africa, Australia, NZ and France only. 
 Interestingly wiki is suggesting NZ joined the irb in 1945 at the same time as SA and Aus and France as late as 1978. Am not sure that's correct. 
 I recall as a young fulla reading a book on the IRB and being put out that SA and Aus had joined before us, but at least we were before France. 
 Have a feeling from that book that France was the last of the full members to join and that was back in the 20s. Hmmm. Will investigate further.

Immenso Rapido

No. 1987 tour was official tests, capped. It was a surprise at the time that it was. But it was. Then 25 odd years later someone(s) changed their mind.

Frye

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="585688" data-time="1465384138">
No. 1987 tour was official tests, capped. It was a surprise at the time that it was. But it was. Then 25 odd years later someone(s) changed their mind.</blockquote>
 
Got a source?

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="585688" data-time="1465384138">
<div>
No. 1987 tour was official tests, capped. It was a surprise at the time that it was. But it was. Then 25 odd years later someone(s) changed their mind.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
Wouldn't that have had implications on Fitzy's test caps record and Kirwan's test tries record? Both have been 92 and 35 respectively for donkeys years. Fitzy gets two more caps and JK would have 5 more tries.

Catogrande

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="585700" data-time="1465391095">
<div>
Got a source?
</div>
</blockquote>
This from Wiki
 
World Rugby was founded as the International Rugby Football Board (IRFB) in 1886 by <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Rugby_Union' title="Scottish Rugby Union">Scotland</a>, <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Rugby_Union' title="Welsh Rugby Union">Wales</a> and <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rugby_Football_Union' title="Irish Rugby Football Union">Ireland</a>, with <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_Football_Union' title="Rugby Football Union">England</a> joining in 1890.<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby#cite_note-FOOTNOTEIRB_Handbook201315-20-7'>[7]</a><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Rugby_Union' title="Australian Rugby Union">Australia</a>, <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Rugby_Union' title="New Zealand Rugby Union">New Zealand</a> and <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Rugby_Board' title="South African Rugby Board">South Africa</a> became full members in 1949.<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby#cite_note-FOOTNOTEIRB_Handbook201315-20-7'>[7]</a><a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Rugby_Federation' title="French Rugby Federation">France</a> became a member in 1978 and a further eighty members joined from 1987 to 1999.<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby#cite_note-FOOTNOTEIRB_Handbook201315-20-7'>[7]</a> The body was renamed the International Rugby Board (IRB) in 1998, and took up its current name in November 2014.<a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby#cite_note-irb-name-wr-8'>[8]</a>
 
If true the argument that full caps were only awarded against IRB members is a bit of a curate's egg. Aus, NZ and SA would not have been capped internationals v the UK sides until 1949 (makes the stats look a little better I have to say) and our French brothers would nto have counted until 1978.

booboo

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Catogrande" data-cid="585709" data-time="1465405172">
This from Wiki 
World Rugby was founded as the International Rugby Football Board (IRFB) in 1886 by <a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Rugby_Union">Scotland</a>, <a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Rugby_Union">Wales</a> and <a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rugby_Football_Union">Ireland</a>, with <a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_Football_Union">England</a> joining in 1890.<a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby#cite_note-FOOTNOTEIRB_Handbook201315-20-7">[7]</a><a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Rugby_Union">Australia</a>, <a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Rugby_Union">New Zealand</a> and <a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_Rugby_Board">South Africa</a> became full members in 1949.<a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby#cite_note-FOOTNOTEIRB_Handbook201315-20-7">[7]</a><a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Rugby_Federation">France</a> became a member in 1978 and a further eighty members joined from 1987 to 1999.<a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby#cite_note-FOOTNOTEIRB_Handbook201315-20-7">[7]</a> The body was renamed the International Rugby Board (IRB) in 1998, and took up its current name in November 2014.<a class="bbc_url" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Rugby#cite_note-irb-name-wr-8">[8]</a> 
If true the argument that full caps were only awarded against IRB members is a bit of a curate's egg. Aus, NZ and SA would not have been capped internationals v the UK sides until 1949 (makes the stats look a little better I have to say) and our French brothers would nto have counted until 1978.</blockquote>
As I said i don't believe wiki. I'm pretty sure SA and Aus were sometime prior to 1900, we were sometime after the turn of the century and France perhaps the 20s. 
This was from a book I read 30 odd years ago though ... did a bit of a google but can only find the Wiki reference. 
And that convention was not necessarily observed by all countries. Aus gave caps for all internations long before then. They lost a test to Tonga in the 70s.

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="585688" data-time="1465384138">
<div>
No. 1987 tour was official tests, capped. It was a surprise at the time that it was. But it was. Then 25 odd years later someone(s) changed their mind.
</div>
</blockquote>
 
[spoiler]
 
Managed to find these videos that seem to suggest it was an All Japan side and in the second one Quinn doesn't mention the upcoming fixture as a test.
 
[youtube]

[youtube]

But it's pretty hard not to draw parralells between this and the '85 Argentina tour.
 
Also didn't know Hart coached this tour solo.
 
[/spoiler]

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Don Frye" data-cid="585700" data-time="1465391095">
Got a source?</blockquote>
No, just my own memories. 
But actually I think I'm remembering it wrong, 
It wasn't caps that were removed a few years ago, so were never official tests, it is no longer an AB tour. 
Even though they were ABs at the time, tour was even post the fern redesign, it even said ABs on their jerseys. 
So Paul Simonsen and Robbie McLean aren't all blacks.

Smudge

I was only 8 at the time, but I recall the two main games on the 1987 EOYT explicitly not being counted as tests. I think JK mentioned the disappointing fact they weren't caps in his John Kirwan's Rugby World book.
 
As for Paul Simonsson and Robbie McLean, they're All Blacks <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/Profile.asp?ABID=792'>890</a> and <a data-ipb='nomediaparse' href='http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/Profile.asp?ABID=586'>888</a> respectively . . . so unless the NZRU remove them and renumber their All Blacks, I'm pretty sure they still are All Blacks.

booboo

Yeah. Pretty sure it was an All Blacks tour. But not tests. But that's according to MY memory which as can be seen above has reliability issues ...

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="booboo" data-cid="585834" data-time="1465440141">
Yeah. Pretty sure it was an All Blacks tour. But not tests. But that's according to MY memory which as can be seen above has reliability issues ...</blockquote>
 
Yes. This correct. 
I've redacted my earlier claims to the contrary.

Immenso Rapido

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Smudge" data-cid="585831" data-time="1465439883">
I was only 8 at the time, but I recall the two main games on the 1987 EOYT explicitly not being counted as tests. I think JK mentioned the disappointing fact they weren't caps in his John Kirwan's Rugby World book. 
As for Paul Simonsson and Robbie McLean, they're All Blacks <a class="bbc_url" href="http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/Profile.asp?ABID=792">890</a> and <a class="bbc_url" href="http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/Profile.asp?ABID=586">888</a> respectively . . . so unless the NZRU remove them and renumber their All Blacks, I'm pretty sure they still are All Blacks.</blockquote>
 
Does no one else remember within about the last 5 years NZRU deciding this was no longer an All Black tour? 
Am I going mad? 
Don't mind if I am

Smudge

Do you want me to order you a straightjacket off the internet, or do you know a guy? :whistle:

rotated

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="Immenso Rapido" data-cid="585841" data-time="1465442096">
<div>
Does no one else remember within about the last 5 years NZRU deciding this was no longer an All Black tour? 
Am I going mad? 
Don't mind if I am
</div>
</blockquote>
You could be right, although it's a hard thing to peddle back on given they were clearly advertised as such and played in AB jerseys. The absence of Lochore would be the only reasonable argument.
 
Last five years would have been weird timing to decide that too given they've played two tests in Tokyo - it would seem like a time to play up rather than down play NZ/Japan history. Geoff Miller who runs the annual almanack would probably know best!

Bovidae

I just looked at the most recent copy of Men In Black I own (published in 2006) and the 2 tests vs Japan are missing. Match 232 is the Bledisloe Cup match after RWC 1987 and match 233 is the 1st test vs Wales in 1988.
 
The Rugby Museum website is taking ages to load so perhaps someone should check if these games are classified as tests on there.

Immenso Rapido

Definitely weren't tests Bovidae. 
I've just filled in a page confusing people due to a dodgy memory.

The Silver Fern

My Latest All Blacks Quiz