2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@stodders I was thinking about persecution complexes/lived experiences.
But the TLDR is: Rassie was a fluffybunny. He should apologize immediately to Berry and to Rugby. And SARU comes out of this horribly.
But from s’Africans’ perspective the video didn’t get the boks an advantage. It finally got this team close to parity in treatment from the refs.
What is frustrating for us is that this team isn’t a creature of a single South African cultural group, much less an expression or extension of the Afrikaaner volk. That was part of what Rassie was protesting. His, and apparently the team’s view, was that they were being treated by the refs as something they weren’t: the Afrikaans bullies of apartheid-era myth. For a team that very consciously defined itself as being the first truly representative bok team that must’ve grated.
But I think the far bigger thing was the team’s perception that Siya was shown far less respect than Jones.
So, the relevant cultural perspective is from the Cape Flats as well as the wineries of Stellenbosch, from Bisho in the Eastern Cape through the leafy Sandton suburbs reeking of too much white wine and white guilt to the townships of NKyamazane.
But Xhosa, Zulu, Sotho, coloured and Afrikaaner share a history of being treated with thinly disguised patronizing contempt by the English. And try as we might, we’d never quite master the subtle social rules and etiquette to be treated as truly civilized.
I’m very sure Berry didn’t intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But I’m equally sure that Kolisi and his team were not accorded the same respect as Jones and the Lions. Kolisi damn sure was: he testified to it.
Rassie’s video was too long, the tone was shit and, having read the judgment, his behaviour leading up to its publication and afterwards was bullying and cowardly, frankly: inexcusable.
But it was also necessary. There is no question after it of any ref dismissing Kolisi, they came correct. And I don’t see any official channel that could have been used to achieve that result.
And here’s the thing: the panel rightly went out of its way to foreground the cost of all this on Berry.
I think that to try and remedy it an extent, they underlined that they accepted his evidence that he did not intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But by doing so they elided the actual point: it isn’t intentional disrespect that’s the problem but rather the unexamined unintentional disrespect and prejudice that needed to be acknowledged.
TL;DR second paragraph good point. Rest complete and utter horse shit.
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@majorrage don’t beat around the bush.
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage don’t beat around the bush.
Mate its' basically a page of you saying Berry's a racist but he doesn't know it.
And that the Bok team are so far above this now, they are better than everybody, including the referee about it, and want to be treated as such.
All because you felt a couple of ref's calls didn't go your way. As for the lack of respect, did you see the way Pearce spoke to Sexton on the weekend? He was pretty blunt and may have even told him to piss off. Does that now give him the right to attack Pearce as the Irish team are such a representative bunch & Pearce is still stuck back in the dark ages (but doesn't know it)?
In my view, it's unequivocal complete and utter horse shit.
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@majorrage I agree with your first and second paragraphs. [edit] that’s too strong. I don’t think he’s a racist but I do think that we all have unexamined biases. And that impacted the way he treated Kolisi.
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage I agree with your first and second paragraphs. [edit] that’s too strong. I don’t think he’s a racist but I do think that we all have unexamined biases. And that impacted the way he treated Kolisi.
you appear to have lost your goddam mind
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage I agree with your first and second paragraphs. [edit] that’s too strong. I don’t think he’s a racist but I do think that we all have unexamined biases. And that impacted the way he treated Kolisi.
Of course we do.
But Kolisi, seriously? The World Cup winning captain?
If you genuinely think a intl referee could treat arguably the most respected player / leader on the planet lesser because of his race then I genuinely think you have serious issues.
This whole thing is beyond absurd.
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Thanks for your perspective Smuts. I disagree with much of it, but I would say it provides some background explanation as to why the backlash from SA has appeared the way it has.
The history of colonisation and the outsider feeling is real. But that has been true for decades, and yet it seems to me SA rugby and it's supporters have gone way off the deep end in the last 6 months in a way they never have before.
I've been on the Fern now for (welp) 15 years, as well as other rugby fora, and rugby Twitter. We've had SA posters and great discussions. There was always a bit of 'us vs them' about it but it never got to a stage where you felt like a siege mentality had set in.
But the last six months have been truly insufferable. After every game a torrent of SA fans online bleat about one thing and one thing only - the referee. A wrong decision or non-decision. The Boks were cheated, robbed. We're hated because we're better, or you hate us because of our tactics, or the fact that we have black players (like every other nation).
Those sentiments are expressed across every fan base, but never before have I seen it as vociferous and consistent as the last six months out of South Africa.
The only conclusion I can draw is the behaviour of South African officials has fanned the flames that have always been there. They have given credence to the lunatic fringe, so now that fringe has become the majority.
And it's hard to know how to get that genie back in the bottle.
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Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA. - The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
Discuss with vigour...
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA. - The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
Discuss with vigour...
Re: point one - I would like to think that Berry getting a Lion's Test is more a reflection of the impact Covid had than where international refereeing is at.
But then I think of Poite...
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA.
Vast majority? No. On balance, I'd say the Lions got the rub of the green, not not vast majority. Regardless, not why you lost. Lions were the better team.
- The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
Yes of course. The standard of refereeing was much better in the games you won. Absolutely, 100%. Yeah, right.
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
And fair enough too. After what he achieved, he's untouchable. Unfortunately though, and whether you or he cares or not, he used to be a global legend. Instead, he's now just a "persecuted" idiot. I wouldn't bother attending a single thing where he was the guest speaker anymore.
Discuss with vigour...
I think @barbarian summed this up beautifully. Above post certainly suggests he is on the right track.
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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I agree with most of this. As a South African fan, I think the whinge absolutely needs to be dialed back and dialed back a lot. Frankly, South Africans (and Afrikaners in particular) have a bit of an inferiority complex/persecution complex at the best of times. This is a cultural trait. The word "laager" in "laager mentality" is of course ultimately an Afrikaans/Boer word for circling of the wagons. The image of a stout tough boer, battling for survival against a hostile and dangerous world is deeply seated within SA/Afrikaans collective conscious. Added to this, and partly for this reason, the Boks don't wear the No 1 crown comfortably. They never have. It is one of the reasons I think you see typically a sharp drop off in their performance after World Cup wins (as an example). It is almost as if when at the top, they now need to create a reason to say that it is still us against the world, even though we are No 1. They like to believe they are always under threat. That is the mindset where they are most comfortable and it plays to their physical game also. I think a lot of this happens almost unconsciously and the pity is that Rassie seems to have missed an opportunity here to help them get away from this way of thinking, grow the self belief from genuine performance and start to act like No 1. Basically AB style.
I think things will calm down, I think they will get better at this, and hopefully Rassie learns something from it. But I'm going easy on the boys.....they are learning.....and this is a lesson that can take some time.....
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@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA. - The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
Discuss with vigour...
Regarding point 3 - in the short term, yes. Referees though are human, so don't be surprised if SA don't get the rub of the green on 50:50 calls when the SA head coach/DoR/water boy/jester has sought to manipulate one of their own in the manner that he did in his quest to secure a series win.
Interestingly, many sports people are driven to the point of being absolute dickheads in their pursuit of glory. Michael Jordan springs to mind here. Erasmus is driven, and doesn't give a crap about the rugby values that are a throwback to amateur times. He wants to win. that's it. Period.
So if you're a SA fan, I'm sure you are happy you have him. But if a non-South African coach ever does similar against SA, I hope you applaud that coach to the sky rather than berate. For all that coach sought to do was ensure a level playing field for their team
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA.
Not brilliant and as @MajorRage said the Lions did get the rub of the green. However such stuff goes on all the time. I can't remember a game that I've seen where a ref's inconsistencies evened out exactly.
- The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
Different referees might have something to do with the differenign levels of refereeing. A more likely scenario than the whole of rugby officialdom getting duped by Rassie's "master stroke".
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
The Jury is still out on this one. A year ago this was pretty much a given. Where Rassie took the Boks to and from where they came from was nothing short of amazing. But I feel there's every chance that the current situation will really tarnish his legacy>
Discuss with vigour...
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@catogrande said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA.
Not brilliant and as @MajorRage said the Lions did get the rub of the green. However such stuff goes on all the time. I can't remember a game that I've seen where a ref's inconsistencies evened out exactly.
- The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
Different referees might have something to do with the differenign levels of refereeing. A more likely scenario than the whole of rugby officialdom getting duped by Rassie's "master stroke".
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
The Jury is still out on this one. A year ago this was pretty much a given. Where Rassie took the Boks to and from where they came from was nothing short of amazing. But I feel there's every chance that the current situation will really tarnish his legacy>
Discuss with vigour...
"Every chance that the current situation will really tarnish his legacy". Outside of SA, that's a given. He won't be short of a job, but I doubt he'll get any admiration for his achievements. But then, so what? He is loved by his own people for delivering what they want. All that remains to be seen is whether his continued involvement with SA proves to be a positive or negative for the team and their chances on the pitch. If Sa continue to win trophies, then I don't think he, nor SARU, really care.
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA. - The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
Discuss with vigour...
I think you are being a little too subtle with your trolling here 😁
Anyhow - point one speaks to one of the main reasons I can't support what he did. Refs make mistakes and those mistakes can (and in my opinion did) influence the outcome of games. But so what, what is the point of litigating those mistakes after the fact?
When I squint through green glasses glasses I can see some issues that was worth discussing though.
1- the refs not holding to their pre-game briefing notes (engaging early on a lineout maul and disrupting caterpillar rucks). When I ref tells you that he is going to focus on these issues, you react and the other team doesn't it is annoying. It is something that can be remedied in future games.
2- related to the above is the issue of "respecting the captains equally". In the warm up matches the Lions used their experience to influence the referees and it worked. In the SA A game the chatter was insane and they had pump in crowd noise for the rest of the tour. It appears that this was brought up in the prematch briefing and the Boks felt it was not acted upon.
3 - the refs not keeping to their stated focus areas (rolling away, foul play etc).
Rassie's video was not structured around or fucused enough on the things that should be rectified in the following tests. Instead it just became a wall of noise.
One thing I would say though - I feel people are overstating how a) insulting/abusive the video was and b) how much of the criticism was aimed directly at Berry rather than the group as a whole.
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@majorrage said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
.... I think it was Major Rage, I get lost with the street signs indicating who is responding to who, said:"complete and utter horse shit" and I say he has pronounced that accurately.
I have read the accounts here with interest, against the backdrop of some years of history, watching, for example, during my professional cadetship from the upper floors of the South African Airways Building in Elizabeth Street, Sydney as the '71 tour protestors strutted their stuff.
The very best bit is yet another invented condition used to bludgeon disagreement with the cause:
"But by doing so they elided the actual point: it isn’t intentional disrespect that’s the problem but rather the unexamined unintentional disrespect and prejudice that needed to be acknowledged"
Whoever came up with that has an assured future in Hollywood, where they make up phrases and sentences, which have no foundation and which mean precisely nothing, on the trot!
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@mick-gold-coast-qld said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
.... I think it was Major Rage, I get lost with the street signs indicating who is responding to who, said:"complete and utter horse shit" and I say he has pronounced that accurately.
I have read the accounts here with interest, against the backdrop of some years of history, watching, for example, during my professional cadetship from the upper floors of the South African Airways Building in Elizabeth Street, Sydney as the '71 tour protestors strutted their stuff.
The very best bit is yet another invented condition used to bludgeon disagreement with the cause:
"But by doing so they elided the actual point: it isn’t intentional disrespect that’s the problem but rather the unexamined unintentional disrespect and prejudice that needed to be acknowledged"
Whoever came up with that has an assured future in Hollywood, where they make up phrases and sentences, which have no foundation and which mean precisely nothing, on the trot!
Ambiguous - it can mean whatever you want it to mean. Micro-aggression - I heard the other day on the radio that you can't ask an Italian where the best Italian restaurant is anymore because stereotyping is a form unconscious bias. The caller then surpassed herself by saying that it is ok to ask a Scot what is the best whisky to drink because most Scots drink whisky. So "unexamined unintentional disrespect" is completely in the eye of the beholder and can be used as a weapon to wield at will on unsuspecting people based on whatever grievance you are carrying at the time.
Honestly - we have too much time on our hands nowadays.
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@mick-gold-coast-qld shoehorning a yarn about how you once watched from afar as other people protested Apartheid as your framing for thinking about this situation is next level fishing.
I salute you.
