2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@stodders I was thinking about persecution complexes/lived experiences.
But the TLDR is: Rassie was a fluffybunny. He should apologize immediately to Berry and to Rugby. And SARU comes out of this horribly.
But from s’Africans’ perspective the video didn’t get the boks an advantage. It finally got this team close to parity in treatment from the refs.
What is frustrating for us is that this team isn’t a creature of a single South African cultural group, much less an expression or extension of the Afrikaaner volk. That was part of what Rassie was protesting. His, and apparently the team’s view, was that they were being treated by the refs as something they weren’t: the Afrikaans bullies of apartheid-era myth. For a team that very consciously defined itself as being the first truly representative bok team that must’ve grated.
But I think the far bigger thing was the team’s perception that Siya was shown far less respect than Jones.
So, the relevant cultural perspective is from the Cape Flats as well as the wineries of Stellenbosch, from Bisho in the Eastern Cape through the leafy Sandton suburbs reeking of too much white wine and white guilt to the townships of NKyamazane.
But Xhosa, Zulu, Sotho, coloured and Afrikaaner share a history of being treated with thinly disguised patronizing contempt by the English. And try as we might, we’d never quite master the subtle social rules and etiquette to be treated as truly civilized.
I’m very sure Berry didn’t intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But I’m equally sure that Kolisi and his team were not accorded the same respect as Jones and the Lions. Kolisi damn sure was: he testified to it.
Rassie’s video was too long, the tone was shit and, having read the judgment, his behaviour leading up to its publication and afterwards was bullying and cowardly, frankly: inexcusable.
But it was also necessary. There is no question after it of any ref dismissing Kolisi, they came correct. And I don’t see any official channel that could have been used to achieve that result.
And here’s the thing: the panel rightly went out of its way to foreground the cost of all this on Berry.
I think that to try and remedy it an extent, they underlined that they accepted his evidence that he did not intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But by doing so they elided the actual point: it isn’t intentional disrespect that’s the problem but rather the unexamined unintentional disrespect and prejudice that needed to be acknowledged.
So to distill this down into short form, Berry was guilty of micro aggressions and Erasmus donned his woke super cape to right the wrongs of decades/centuries of colonial rule/white supremacy.
Nope. Not buying it. I'm not going to dismiss this out of hand. I can certainly empathise with parts of your rationale, especially the bit about how subjugated ppl feel under colonial rule (which takes generations to dissipate away). But to suggest Erasmus got on his steed to defend Kolisi's honour and demand equality for SA when officiated by refs? Nope. He took a calculated gamble because he sought to gain an advantage. Not parity. Not equality. He knew refs following would be scared shitless by insinuations of racism and bias. He played on it and he got what he wanted. What's worse is he sought to get his way at the expense of Berry and his career. That's not the definition of a saviour. That's the definition of a sociopath.
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@stodders I certainly saw no difference in the treatment of Siya than Jones, I watched the game on my iPad with headphones, which is really good to hear the ref on the sky app. Feeling you are persecuted is not persecution, I think it mauve an in camp attitude that is a self fulfilling prophecy. It seems like the bok group conflate a rabid press and social media, with professional refs.
Sand nothing excuses RE blackmail attempt, and release of video.
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@stodders I was thinking about persecution complexes/lived experiences.
But the TLDR is: Rassie was a fluffybunny. He should apologize immediately to Berry and to Rugby. And SARU comes out of this horribly.
But from s’Africans’ perspective the video didn’t get the boks an advantage. It finally got this team close to parity in treatment from the refs.
What is frustrating for us is that this team isn’t a creature of a single South African cultural group, much less an expression or extension of the Afrikaaner volk. That was part of what Rassie was protesting. His, and apparently the team’s view, was that they were being treated by the refs as something they weren’t: the Afrikaans bullies of apartheid-era myth. For a team that very consciously defined itself as being the first truly representative bok team that must’ve grated.
But I think the far bigger thing was the team’s perception that Siya was shown far less respect than Jones.
So, the relevant cultural perspective is from the Cape Flats as well as the wineries of Stellenbosch, from Bisho in the Eastern Cape through the leafy Sandton suburbs reeking of too much white wine and white guilt to the townships of NKyamazane.
But Xhosa, Zulu, Sotho, coloured and Afrikaaner share a history of being treated with thinly disguised patronizing contempt by the English. And try as we might, we’d never quite master the subtle social rules and etiquette to be treated as truly civilized.
I’m very sure Berry didn’t intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But I’m equally sure that Kolisi and his team were not accorded the same respect as Jones and the Lions. Kolisi damn sure was: he testified to it.
Rassie’s video was too long, the tone was shit and, having read the judgment, his behaviour leading up to its publication and afterwards was bullying and cowardly, frankly: inexcusable.
But it was also necessary. There is no question after it of any ref dismissing Kolisi, they came correct. And I don’t see any official channel that could have been used to achieve that result.
And here’s the thing: the panel rightly went out of its way to foreground the cost of all this on Berry.
I think that to try and remedy it an extent, they underlined that they accepted his evidence that he did not intentionally disrespect Kolisi. But by doing so they elided the actual point: it isn’t intentional disrespect that’s the problem but rather the unexamined unintentional disrespect and prejudice that needed to be acknowledged.
TL;DR second paragraph good point. Rest complete and utter horse shit.
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@majorrage don’t beat around the bush.
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage don’t beat around the bush.
Mate its' basically a page of you saying Berry's a racist but he doesn't know it.
And that the Bok team are so far above this now, they are better than everybody, including the referee about it, and want to be treated as such.
All because you felt a couple of ref's calls didn't go your way. As for the lack of respect, did you see the way Pearce spoke to Sexton on the weekend? He was pretty blunt and may have even told him to piss off. Does that now give him the right to attack Pearce as the Irish team are such a representative bunch & Pearce is still stuck back in the dark ages (but doesn't know it)?
In my view, it's unequivocal complete and utter horse shit.
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@majorrage I agree with your first and second paragraphs. [edit] that’s too strong. I don’t think he’s a racist but I do think that we all have unexamined biases. And that impacted the way he treated Kolisi.
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage I agree with your first and second paragraphs. [edit] that’s too strong. I don’t think he’s a racist but I do think that we all have unexamined biases. And that impacted the way he treated Kolisi.
you appear to have lost your goddam mind
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@smuts said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@majorrage I agree with your first and second paragraphs. [edit] that’s too strong. I don’t think he’s a racist but I do think that we all have unexamined biases. And that impacted the way he treated Kolisi.
Of course we do.
But Kolisi, seriously? The World Cup winning captain?
If you genuinely think a intl referee could treat arguably the most respected player / leader on the planet lesser because of his race then I genuinely think you have serious issues.
This whole thing is beyond absurd.
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Thanks for your perspective Smuts. I disagree with much of it, but I would say it provides some background explanation as to why the backlash from SA has appeared the way it has.
The history of colonisation and the outsider feeling is real. But that has been true for decades, and yet it seems to me SA rugby and it's supporters have gone way off the deep end in the last 6 months in a way they never have before.
I've been on the Fern now for (welp) 15 years, as well as other rugby fora, and rugby Twitter. We've had SA posters and great discussions. There was always a bit of 'us vs them' about it but it never got to a stage where you felt like a siege mentality had set in.
But the last six months have been truly insufferable. After every game a torrent of SA fans online bleat about one thing and one thing only - the referee. A wrong decision or non-decision. The Boks were cheated, robbed. We're hated because we're better, or you hate us because of our tactics, or the fact that we have black players (like every other nation).
Those sentiments are expressed across every fan base, but never before have I seen it as vociferous and consistent as the last six months out of South Africa.
The only conclusion I can draw is the behaviour of South African officials has fanned the flames that have always been there. They have given credence to the lunatic fringe, so now that fringe has become the majority.
And it's hard to know how to get that genie back in the bottle.
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Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA. - The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
Discuss with vigour...
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA. - The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
Discuss with vigour...
Re: point one - I would like to think that Berry getting a Lion's Test is more a reflection of the impact Covid had than where international refereeing is at.
But then I think of Poite...
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA.
Vast majority? No. On balance, I'd say the Lions got the rub of the green, not not vast majority. Regardless, not why you lost. Lions were the better team.
- The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
Yes of course. The standard of refereeing was much better in the games you won. Absolutely, 100%. Yeah, right.
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
And fair enough too. After what he achieved, he's untouchable. Unfortunately though, and whether you or he cares or not, he used to be a global legend. Instead, he's now just a "persecuted" idiot. I wouldn't bother attending a single thing where he was the guest speaker anymore.
Discuss with vigour...
I think @barbarian summed this up beautifully. Above post certainly suggests he is on the right track.
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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I agree with most of this. As a South African fan, I think the whinge absolutely needs to be dialed back and dialed back a lot. Frankly, South Africans (and Afrikaners in particular) have a bit of an inferiority complex/persecution complex at the best of times. This is a cultural trait. The word "laager" in "laager mentality" is of course ultimately an Afrikaans/Boer word for circling of the wagons. The image of a stout tough boer, battling for survival against a hostile and dangerous world is deeply seated within SA/Afrikaans collective conscious. Added to this, and partly for this reason, the Boks don't wear the No 1 crown comfortably. They never have. It is one of the reasons I think you see typically a sharp drop off in their performance after World Cup wins (as an example). It is almost as if when at the top, they now need to create a reason to say that it is still us against the world, even though we are No 1. They like to believe they are always under threat. That is the mindset where they are most comfortable and it plays to their physical game also. I think a lot of this happens almost unconsciously and the pity is that Rassie seems to have missed an opportunity here to help them get away from this way of thinking, grow the self belief from genuine performance and start to act like No 1. Basically AB style.
I think things will calm down, I think they will get better at this, and hopefully Rassie learns something from it. But I'm going easy on the boys.....they are learning.....and this is a lesson that can take some time.....
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@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA. - The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
Discuss with vigour...
Regarding point 3 - in the short term, yes. Referees though are human, so don't be surprised if SA don't get the rub of the green on 50:50 calls when the SA head coach/DoR/water boy/jester has sought to manipulate one of their own in the manner that he did in his quest to secure a series win.
Interestingly, many sports people are driven to the point of being absolute dickheads in their pursuit of glory. Michael Jordan springs to mind here. Erasmus is driven, and doesn't give a crap about the rugby values that are a throwback to amateur times. He wants to win. that's it. Period.
So if you're a SA fan, I'm sure you are happy you have him. But if a non-South African coach ever does similar against SA, I hope you applaud that coach to the sky rather than berate. For all that coach sought to do was ensure a level playing field for their team
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA.
Not brilliant and as @MajorRage said the Lions did get the rub of the green. However such stuff goes on all the time. I can't remember a game that I've seen where a ref's inconsistencies evened out exactly.
- The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
Different referees might have something to do with the differenign levels of refereeing. A more likely scenario than the whole of rugby officialdom getting duped by Rassie's "master stroke".
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
The Jury is still out on this one. A year ago this was pretty much a given. Where Rassie took the Boks to and from where they came from was nothing short of amazing. But I feel there's every chance that the current situation will really tarnish his legacy>
Discuss with vigour...
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
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@catogrande said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
@billy-webb said in 2021 British & Irish Lions tour to SA:
Gosh - some thread this has been since the verdict against Rassie!
I'm not going to bother to go into any detail about the video or the WR verdict but will simply state 3 views I hold:
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
shitlet's say well below par with a vast majority of those poor decisions going against SA.
Not brilliant and as @MajorRage said the Lions did get the rub of the green. However such stuff goes on all the time. I can't remember a game that I've seen where a ref's inconsistencies evened out exactly.
- The standard of refereeing in tests 2 & 3 were markedly better
Different referees might have something to do with the differenign levels of refereeing. A more likely scenario than the whole of rugby officialdom getting duped by Rassie's "master stroke".
- Rassie has been and continues to be great for the Boks and SA rugby.
The Jury is still out on this one. A year ago this was pretty much a given. Where Rassie took the Boks to and from where they came from was nothing short of amazing. But I feel there's every chance that the current situation will really tarnish his legacy>
Discuss with vigour...
"Every chance that the current situation will really tarnish his legacy". Outside of SA, that's a given. He won't be short of a job, but I doubt he'll get any admiration for his achievements. But then, so what? He is loved by his own people for delivering what they want. All that remains to be seen is whether his continued involvement with SA proves to be a positive or negative for the team and their chances on the pitch. If Sa continue to win trophies, then I don't think he, nor SARU, really care.
- Nic Berry's performance in the first BIL's test was
