Judiciary Happenings
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@antipodean said in Judiciary Happenings:
This is the problem with lawyers, spit, being involved. They act like they're actually in a court of law.
The whole process is ruined by not acknowledging the parameters in which referees and their assistants have to operate.
rugby loves to double up its sanctions
Penalty try? then i have to yellow card you
Red card? You have to have 3 weeks. -
Ouch - sorry gentlemen. Seems I precipitated a minor storm in a teacup with my question about raising the sanction on appeal. It stems from my (clearly mistaken) belief that this was a kind of cautionary provision in place to avoid spurious appeals.
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@Billy-Webb first time poster? Welcome aboard!
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@antipodean said in Judiciary Happenings:
This is the problem with lawyers, spit, being involved. They act like they're actually in a court of law.
The whole process is ruined by not acknowledging the parameters in which referees and their assistants have to operate.
When the regulations are worded like legislative instruments, then is it any surprise that lawyers and barristers are involved?
There’s a QC hearing these matters so I’d be lawyering up to speak his language.
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@ACT-Crusader said in Judiciary Happenings:
@antipodean said in Judiciary Happenings:
This is the problem with lawyers, spit, being involved. They act like they're actually in a court of law.
The whole process is ruined by not acknowledging the parameters in which referees and their assistants have to operate.
When the regulations are worded like legislative instruments, then is it any surprise that lawyers and barristers are involved?
There’s a QC hearing these matters so I’d be lawyering up to speak his language.
That's the problem. Take Motu Matu’u for example; judge, lawyer and an ex-referee. IMO it should be referees from the existing panel to help ensure some consistency.
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WR have raised a sanction in the past.
Adam Thompson was originally sentenced to one week a few years ago but this was appealed by the IRB and the sentence increased.
The reason the sanctions all seem to start at 6 weeks is for an obvious reason. The judiciary works with a well defined system for allocating punishment. NZR have a system which I believe is identical and it applies to all levels of rugby, except the very lowest levels (u12, rippa rugby type stuff.
Essentially the job of the judiciary is threefold.
- They have to firstly determine if there is an offence committed;
- Then they have to determine the range of the offence (low, mid or top end);
- Then they have to determine if there are mitigating or aggravating factors which can be applied to increase or decrease the punishment.
(note this is different to the NRL and some other leagues, where the grading decisions are made by the citer, not the judicial panel).
WR have decreed that if there is foul play which involves contact to the head, it is automatically at least mid range. Foul play involving contact to the head cannot be graded as low end.
For a dangerous tackle (including early, late, high), the sanctions start at:
Low end 2 weeks
Mid range 6 weeks
Top end 10+ weeks.Thus we are seeing a spate of decisions where the starting tariff is 6 weeks because that is what WR have mandated.
Then the judiciary weighs up any mitigating and/or aggravating features. However for offences at Mid range or above, the judicary cannot reduce a sanction by more than 50% of the starting sanction. Thus a high tackle meeting the RC threshold involving contact to the head will always result in a sanction of at least 3 weeks.
Personally I thought the Uruguayan one was very harsh and shouldn't have been an RC, but once it was a RC, the 3 week sanction follows.
Should there be more discretion? Perhaps but presumably the point of the system is to try and create consistency of decision making throughout the world. I imagine it is designed to avoid suggestions of bias and rogue judicial panels just doing what they want.
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Ed Fidow is free to play with immediate effect
Samoa winger Ed Fidow attended a disciplinary hearing having been issued with a red card after receiving two yellow cards in Samoa’s Rugby World Cup 2019 match against Scotland on 30 September. The Judicial Committee was chaired by Wang Shao Ing (Singapore lawyer and former international player) with former international player Olly Kohn (Wales) and former international referee José Luis Rolandi (Argentina). After considering all the evidence and having given due consideration to the fact that: a. the first yellow card was for a technical offence; and b. the second yellow card was issued for a minor act of foul play which would not have warranted a yellow card but for the fact that the player had prevented a try being scored; the Judicial Committee determined that the red card was sufficient. The player is free to play with immediate effect. -
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@NTA Was just about to post this:
Italian prop Andrea Lovotti and replacement prop Nicola Quaglio suspended for 3 games
Italian prop Andrea Lovotti received a red card for an act of foul play contrary to Law 9.18 (lifting tackle) in Italy’s Rugby World Cup 2019 match against South Africa on 4 October. Italy replacement prop Nicola Quaglio was cited by citing commissioner John Montgomery (Scotland) for his involvement in the same tackle. The players attended a disciplinary hearing in Tokyo on 6 October before an independent judicial panel chaired by Sir James Dingemans (England) with former international player Olly Kohn (Wales) and former Scotland coach Frank Hadden (Scotland). Lovotti admitted the act of foul play and accepted that it warranted a red card. Quaglio accepted that he had committed an act of foul play but denied that it met the red card threshold. Having considered all the evidence and after hearing from the players and their legal representative, the panel upheld the citing against Quaglio and imposed a sanction of three matches for both players. In reaching its decision, the panel took into account the following: * Both players were involved in lifting South Africa number eight Duane Vermeulen and dropping him to the ground * The dynamics of the tackle were affected by the actions of both players * There was no lasting injury to the South Africa number eight * There were no aggravating factors and full mitigation was applied because of the players’ clean records and acceptance of their individual roles in the foul play The players will both miss Italy’s remaining pool match against New Zealand on 12 October. The balance of the suspension will be served in the Rugby World Cup quarter and semi-final should Italy progress. If Italy does not progress, the balance of the suspensions will be served in the players’ upcoming PRO14 matches. -
I expect Nepo will likely be cited for his, swinging arm, contact head...
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@taniwharugby swinging arm looked bad BUT I'm pretty sure he will get off.
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@taniwharugby that, but dipping player.
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@NTA yeah he was, but his arm was swinging quite hard, guess they will have to look into his eyes to see the malicious intent, I'll be surprised if Ofa gets cited, his was just his arm moving forward as any tackler does.
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@taniwharugby said in Judiciary Happenings:
@NTA yeah he was, but his arm was swinging quite hard, guess they will have to look into his eyes to see the malicious intent, I'll be surprised if Ofa gets cited, his was just his arm moving forward as any tackler does.
both should get off, Nepo YC fair, Ofa not even a P
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@NTA said in Judiciary Happenings:
@taniwharugby swinging arm looked bad BUT I'm pretty sure he will get off.
This ain’t twitter mate...
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@Machpants They have 6 props in their squad:
Simone FERRARI (Benetton Rugby, 23 caps)
Andrea LOVOTTI (Zebre Rugby Club, 36 caps)*
Tiziano PASQUALI (Benetton Rugby, 19 caps)
Nicola QUAGLIO (Benetton Rugby, 10 caps)*
Marco RICCIONI (Benetton Rugby, 2 caps)*
Federico ZANI (Benetton Rugby 8 caps) -
@Stargazer said in Judiciary Happenings:
@Machpants They have 6 props in their squad:
Simone FERRARI (Benetton Rugby, 23 caps)
Andrea LOVOTTI (Zebre Rugby Club, 36 caps)*
Tiziano PASQUALI (Benetton Rugby, 19 caps)
Nicola QUAGLIO (Benetton Rugby, 10 caps)*
Marco RICCIONI (Benetton Rugby, 2 caps)*
Federico ZANI (Benetton Rugby 8 caps)Golden oldies scrums before half time then?
