All Blacks vs Tonga
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@pukunui said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
A previous injustice shouldn’t be used as a precedent.
OK, I looked up the Fall incident on Beaudy, and I now don't understnad the laws any more.
Every time I see that, I see a red card - but if you slip or trip it appears it's play on. Bummer if you happen to be in the air.
So, based on that - Fall shouldn't have copped a Red, and Gardner got it right today as well, and I'm confused.
I think that just shows the judicial process is a lottery.
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@KiwiMurph said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
I think Boks would have got more out of their warm up last night v Japan than ABs v Tonga.
However that went about as well as could be hoped.
Overtaken lock Barrett or blindside Barrett?
Surely Tuipulotu has overtaken Barrett now.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
Anyone believe that the team won't collectively come out of this weekend looking good? It's an opposed training run where people with minor niggles aren't being risked.
Not exactly the most astounding prediction ever.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
That's not a YC ffs
I think it probably is from the end on shot - but for the game he should have sent two ABs off as well.
Terrible call -- he was pulling out and put a hand out to soften the impact. Just in no way a yellow.
Referees are going to cost some teams at this cup, and it's going to suck.
He hit him with the shoulder even while pulling out. I don't disagree that refs will cost teams but by the letter of the law it's yellow.
Probably - I'd argue little force and pulling out - but to me shows how refs don't seem to have 'feel' for the game any more. I don't think that's the sort of tackle that was intended to be carded, no matter how the laws are written.
I think Gardner does and this decision just now shows that.
I disagree with Marshall. For me, that's still a penalty and possibly yellow card - the precedent was that bloke who slipped while taking off a year or two back and still copped it. I think the Tongans were right.
Not a red, but I don't think it was a scrum either for that matter
Why reconfirm stupid precedents? (I don't know what incident you're talking about off the top of my head though).
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
That's not a YC ffs
I think it probably is from the end on shot - but for the game he should have sent two ABs off as well.
Terrible call -- he was pulling out and put a hand out to soften the impact. Just in no way a yellow.
Referees are going to cost some teams at this cup, and it's going to suck.
He hit him with the shoulder even while pulling out. I don't disagree that refs will cost teams but by the letter of the law it's yellow.
Probably - I'd argue little force and pulling out - but to me shows how refs don't seem to have 'feel' for the game any more. I don't think that's the sort of tackle that was intended to be carded, no matter how the laws are written.
I think Gardner does and this decision just now shows that.
Disagree - if not a card it's a clear penalty.
You've changed your tune - in the Tongan one the Tongan player lead with a shoulder, all his fault, in this one JB tripped over another player.
I haven't changed my tune at all and all you've done is offer a biased description of both incidents.
If you read what I actually wrote I said both are penalties.
What should JB be penalised for?
Taking a player out in the air. The fact I need to point that out suggests you should be telling me less about the laws and what the outcome should've been.
JB didn't tackle, push, pull or grasp the player in the air, he fell into him with no intention due to an accident.
I notice you deliberately left out charge. Which is what he did. Hence a penalty.
You can put charge back in if you like (I didn't deliberately leave it out just missed it), as what happened was JB tripped over Reece.
Anyway, I'm out, can't be assed with this discussion anymore, I agree with the refs decision (like a stopped clock ...)
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@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
That's not a YC ffs
I think it probably is from the end on shot - but for the game he should have sent two ABs off as well.
Terrible call -- he was pulling out and put a hand out to soften the impact. Just in no way a yellow.
Referees are going to cost some teams at this cup, and it's going to suck.
He hit him with the shoulder even while pulling out. I don't disagree that refs will cost teams but by the letter of the law it's yellow.
Probably - I'd argue little force and pulling out - but to me shows how refs don't seem to have 'feel' for the game any more. I don't think that's the sort of tackle that was intended to be carded, no matter how the laws are written.
I think Gardner does and this decision just now shows that.
I disagree with Marshall. For me, that's still a penalty and possibly yellow card - the precedent was that bloke who slipped while taking off a year or two back and still copped it. I think the Tongans were right.
Not a red, but I don't think it was a scrum either for that matter
Why reconfirm stupid precedents? (I don't know what incident you're talking about off the top of my head though).
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
That's not a YC ffs
I think it probably is from the end on shot - but for the game he should have sent two ABs off as well.
Terrible call -- he was pulling out and put a hand out to soften the impact. Just in no way a yellow.
Referees are going to cost some teams at this cup, and it's going to suck.
He hit him with the shoulder even while pulling out. I don't disagree that refs will cost teams but by the letter of the law it's yellow.
Probably - I'd argue little force and pulling out - but to me shows how refs don't seem to have 'feel' for the game any more. I don't think that's the sort of tackle that was intended to be carded, no matter how the laws are written.
I think Gardner does and this decision just now shows that.
Disagree - if not a card it's a clear penalty.
You've changed your tune - in the Tongan one the Tongan player lead with a shoulder, all his fault, in this one JB tripped over another player.
I haven't changed my tune at all and all you've done is offer a biased description of both incidents.
If you read what I actually wrote I said both are penalties.
What should JB be penalised for?
Taking a player out in the air. The fact I need to point that out suggests you should be telling me less about the laws and what the outcome should've been.
JB didn't tackle, push, pull or grasp the player in the air, he fell into him with no intention due to an accident.
I rewatched the french incident, and to my eyes they are totally different. The french player makes no play on the ball, the only thing you could try to argue was poor timing. Jordie was tripped and fell into the tongan player's path. Freak accident
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
I rewatched the french incident, and to my eyes they are totally different. The french player makes no play on the ball, the only thing you could try to argue was poor timing. Jordie was tripped and fell into the tongan player's path. Freak accident
And yet they are both not red cards according to the IRB interpretation.
shrugs.
As long as it's consistent. The laws I quoted above all referred to reckless or foul play -- clearly none with JB; arguable timing with the froggy above.
I went and found the incident I think I was thinking of - was Leolin Zas on Foley. Like JB put himself in a decent position, but didn't get off the ground as he slipped. Red card.
Inconsistent? Hell yeah. Zas copped a 2 week ban as well.
So, it's a lottery.
Leolin Zas red carded and banned after Bernard Foley's awful landing | Rugbydump
Stormers back Leolin Zas was shown a straight red card for this challenge on Bernard Foley on Saturday prompting discussions over the decision, as both players appeared to be making a fair attempt at claiming the ball. However, Zas has been banned for 2 weeks.
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@nzzp Listen to what the ref says: the player wasn't in a position to catch the ball. It's an assessment about which you can differ in opinion, but if that's the refs opinion, it explains very well why the outcome was different. No inconsistency in the application of the rules.
By the way, that was in 2016. With all the rule changes the last few years, there may be some differences in the rules or application guidelines as well.
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@canefan said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
That's not a YC ffs
I think it probably is from the end on shot - but for the game he should have sent two ABs off as well.
Terrible call -- he was pulling out and put a hand out to soften the impact. Just in no way a yellow.
Referees are going to cost some teams at this cup, and it's going to suck.
He hit him with the shoulder even while pulling out. I don't disagree that refs will cost teams but by the letter of the law it's yellow.
Probably - I'd argue little force and pulling out - but to me shows how refs don't seem to have 'feel' for the game any more. I don't think that's the sort of tackle that was intended to be carded, no matter how the laws are written.
I think Gardner does and this decision just now shows that.
I disagree with Marshall. For me, that's still a penalty and possibly yellow card - the precedent was that bloke who slipped while taking off a year or two back and still copped it. I think the Tongans were right.
Not a red, but I don't think it was a scrum either for that matter
Why reconfirm stupid precedents? (I don't know what incident you're talking about off the top of my head though).
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Nepia said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@antipodean said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
That's not a YC ffs
I think it probably is from the end on shot - but for the game he should have sent two ABs off as well.
Terrible call -- he was pulling out and put a hand out to soften the impact. Just in no way a yellow.
Referees are going to cost some teams at this cup, and it's going to suck.
He hit him with the shoulder even while pulling out. I don't disagree that refs will cost teams but by the letter of the law it's yellow.
Probably - I'd argue little force and pulling out - but to me shows how refs don't seem to have 'feel' for the game any more. I don't think that's the sort of tackle that was intended to be carded, no matter how the laws are written.
I think Gardner does and this decision just now shows that.
Disagree - if not a card it's a clear penalty.
You've changed your tune - in the Tongan one the Tongan player lead with a shoulder, all his fault, in this one JB tripped over another player.
I haven't changed my tune at all and all you've done is offer a biased description of both incidents.
If you read what I actually wrote I said both are penalties.
What should JB be penalised for?
Taking a player out in the air. The fact I need to point that out suggests you should be telling me less about the laws and what the outcome should've been.
JB didn't tackle, push, pull or grasp the player in the air, he fell into him with no intention due to an accident.
I rewatched the french incident, and to my eyes they are totally different. The french player makes no play on the ball, the only thing you could try to argue was poor timing. Jordie was tripped and fell into the tongan player's path. Freak accident
I totally agree with that. Frenchy made no attempt and IMO wasn’t impeded at all. I only brought it up because that was the excuse the judiciary pulled out to overturn it. So it is a consideration they have made before.
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@nzzp said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@canefan said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
I rewatched the french incident, and to my eyes they are totally different. The french player makes no play on the ball, the only thing you could try to argue was poor timing. Jordie was tripped and fell into the tongan player's path. Freak accident
And yet they are both not red cards according to the IRB interpretation.
shrugs.
As long as it's consistent. The laws I quoted above all referred to reckless or foul play -- clearly none with JB; arguable timing with the froggy above.
I went and found the incident I think I was thinking of - was Leolin Zas on Foley. Like JB put himself in a decent position, but didn't get off the ground as he slipped. Red card.
Inconsistent? Hell yeah. Zas copped a 2 week ban as well.
So, it's a lottery.
Leolin Zas red carded and banned after Bernard Foley's awful landing | Rugbydump
Stormers back Leolin Zas was shown a straight red card for this challenge on Bernard Foley on Saturday prompting discussions over the decision, as both players appeared to be making a fair attempt at claiming the ball. However, Zas has been banned for 2 weeks.
Yep total lottery. That Saffa one is bullshit. No way that should be red, let along a ban too. IMO that should have been ruled like the Jordie one was.
But as we’ve been saying for a ling time. There is no consistency. That doesn’t mean the call today was wrong though.
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Does anyone else think that deliberately reducing your team to 14 players is a little bit against the spirit of rugby??
If that's how the ABs are going to play... #prayfornamibiaitalycanada
Plenty of ammunition there for mokey to launch Rieko Ioane's "everyone is against the Blues" comeback. Not. You can pencil in Reece and Bridge for the SA game
Who are our 3 midfielders for SA? ALB will be in the 23 and must be making some sort of case to start at 13 I have to say. Will they go with Crotty or SBW at 12?
I've watched a good bit of these warm-up games and the only contender for more impressive (and it was more impressive given the opposition) was England destroying Ireland.
Happy days.
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@nzzp they are quite a lot different, no comparison really, plus, there was no red card...
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@Billy-Tell I reckon they might go:
A. Smith, Mo'unga, Bridge, SBW, ALB, B.Smith, Barrett
TJP, Crotty, Ioane/Reece
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@Chris-B said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Billy-Tell I reckon they might go:
A. Smith, Mo'unga, Bridge, SBW, ALB, B.Smith, Barrett
TJP, Crotty, Ioane/Reece
I’m intrigued to see. Goodhue either starts or not in the 23. ALB and Crotty cover 12/13. SBW as a “game changer” probably in the 23. I personally think Ben Smith is now 15 only. Good headache to have.
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
Does anyone else think that deliberately reducing your team to 14 players is a little bit against the spirit of rugby??
If that's how the ABs are going to play... #prayfornamibiaitalycanada
Plenty of ammunition there for mokey to launch Rieko Ioane's "everyone is against the Blues" comeback. Not. You can pencil in Reece and Bridge for the SA game
Who are our 3 midfielders for SA? ALB will be in the 23 and must be making some sort of case to start at 13 I have to say. Will they go with Crotty or SBW at 12?
I've watched a good bit of these warm-up games and the only contender for more impressive (and it was more impressive given the opposition) was England destroying Ireland.
Happy days.
#flatrackbullies i’d rather they play the top combo of Ioane, BB and Smith.
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@pukunui said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
Does anyone else think that deliberately reducing your team to 14 players is a little bit against the spirit of rugby??
If that's how the ABs are going to play... #prayfornamibiaitalycanada
Plenty of ammunition there for mokey to launch Rieko Ioane's "everyone is against the Blues" comeback. Not. You can pencil in Reece and Bridge for the SA game
Who are our 3 midfielders for SA? ALB will be in the 23 and must be making some sort of case to start at 13 I have to say. Will they go with Crotty or SBW at 12?
I've watched a good bit of these warm-up games and the only contender for more impressive (and it was more impressive given the opposition) was England destroying Ireland.
Happy days.
#flatrackbullies i’d rather they play the top combo of Ioane, BB and Smith.
I put money on it that that is no longer our top combo.
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@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@pukunui said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@Billy-Tell said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
Does anyone else think that deliberately reducing your team to 14 players is a little bit against the spirit of rugby??
If that's how the ABs are going to play... #prayfornamibiaitalycanada
Plenty of ammunition there for mokey to launch Rieko Ioane's "everyone is against the Blues" comeback. Not. You can pencil in Reece and Bridge for the SA game
Who are our 3 midfielders for SA? ALB will be in the 23 and must be making some sort of case to start at 13 I have to say. Will they go with Crotty or SBW at 12?
I've watched a good bit of these warm-up games and the only contender for more impressive (and it was more impressive given the opposition) was England destroying Ireland.
Happy days.
#flatrackbullies i’d rather they play the top combo of Ioane, BB and Smith.
I put money on it that that is no longer our top combo.
I think they'll play Beaudy at 10, Smith at the back, Ioane on left wing and someone on the right - perhaps Bridge? Not sure the dual playmaker was anything but a practice run; everyone thinks that's what we'll roll out, but I"m not so sure.
What I do know is that no-one knows what we'll put out against SA or in the knockout rounds. Powder Dry!
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@Billy-Tell Big deal it was Tonga. But I do agree on deliberately going down to 14 men. Bit of a dick move and disrespect doing that.
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks vs Tonga:
@nzzp they are quite a lot different, no comparison really, plus, there was no red card...
the JB and Fall were reffed the same way eventually (provided the judiciary don't assign a post-game Red of course
, with no real consequence for players as they weren't 'reckless'Zas looks the outlier to me. Rule that as an accidental slip, and downgrade it to yellow, and you have a moderately consistent set of rulings.
That said, I think the Fall was Red, the Zas was Yellow, and the JB was penalty only -- provided we are allowed to take into account outside effects.
But this will all be a bad look if someone gets nudged, knocks a player in the air and they fall on their head. Will the media tolerate an all black slipping and dropping someone on their head?
Like all rugby rulings, all I want is consistency. I'm not going to get it, but that's what I want.
