TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98)
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@Jaguares4real said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
But why does BB feel to move the ball at all
I’m sure you aren’t silly enough to claim this is unique to the All Blacks. I’ve seen players from every nation try this crap.
Why do they feel the need? Well ‘need’ is the wrong word. They do it because there’s a small gain and no real penalty.
If you get away with it, you gain a yard or two. If you get caught, the ref laughs and moves the ball back to the correct mark.
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The re-watch: Is it now time to leave Fifita behind?
In a gripping game that SA will feel unlucky about only drawing, a number of ABs showed the selectors why they shouldn’t be at the world cup. Some players appear past it, and some are just not good enough.
What is happening with our starting front row?
First, the starting front row performance was pretty woeful – with the possible exception of Taylor. Although it is their first AB game of the year, the invisibility of Owen Franks – except for his defensive lapses (including some comical misses) is a key issue. One hopes that it is form and both he and Moody have enough to turn it on in Japan. The stats show that Taylor had 6 metres, 1 bad throw, 9 tackles, and no misses. Moody gained 3 metres from 2 runs, including 1 terrible cold drop turnover. He did earn 1 turnover, and made 4 of his 5 tackles. Owen Franks had no stats on offence (according to Sanzar) – no carries, metres, or passes. However, on my rewatch, which I'll discus below, I did notice one carry at 42:27, where he gained about one metre. He made 5 tackles and had his customary 2 misses. I’m wondering why Ofa, Nepo, or Ta’avao can’t get a chance here – each can carry, clean, and tackle plus I wonder if there is so much difference in their scrummaging. Is this Cron focusing too much on the scrum?
SBW
Second, it’s probably time to recognize that SBW is not the key to breaking down the rush – in fact he can be targeted due to the way he carries. He had one magical pass (that to be fair most 12s should give), but that was it. Apart from that, our (starting) midfield was pretty up and down. It seemed that ALB was a little more dynamic when he came on, although the stats don’t really bear that out too much – probably because they don’t capture the metres gained from a couple of his passes. Anyway, by the numbers, SBW was penalized once, and turned over the ball twice, while making 7 tackles with no misses) and running for 16 metres off 10 carries. ALB had two runs with one defender beaten, 1 tackle with no misses, and had 3 passes, one of which found space.
The continuing problem at Six
Finally, six remains a key problem. It’s puzzling that they only gave Paps 4 minutes, but I think it’s because they wanted to see Frizell's contribution, and there was a bit of talk in the game thread about him being a bit anonymous, so after @Duluth suggested that he be the focus on today’s post, I looked at him and Fifita – always good for plenty of discussion – in my re-watch. First, the stats according to Sanzar:
Frizell won 3 lineouts, ran for 16 metres, made 5 tackles with 1 miss, and wasn’t penalized, conceding no turnovers. His fellow starters were busy, Todd had 14 tackles with no misses, and ran for 17 metres (more than any forward not named Dane Coles [31]). At eight, Read made 8 tackles with no misses. Looking at those stats, Frizell certainly looks like the weak link, but as my re-watch will show, he’s actually doing a fair bit of suitcase work. Furthermore, I really like the way he chases play, even to make a clean. That point separates him from Fifita, who after coming on to replace Retallick also won 3 lineouts, but made zero tackles in nearly 19 minutes with one offload while running for 4-6 metres off 5 carries. It’s not exactly what we’d like from a supposedly amazing athlete, but I think he just isn’t physical or active enough at this level – he’d end up on the wing or be the guy standing behind the ruck, rather that the guy who chases the play and make a strong contribution.
As you’ll see below, altogether I get about 40 odd ruck attendances for Frizell, at many of which he makes effective cleans.
On the other hand, I have Fifita with about 9 during his 19 minutes, so it seems similar right? It’s not.
Fifita is a ruck leaner – very seldom a ruck cleaner.
I’m no AB selector (clearly), but if one six is to be dropped from Frizell, Fifita, and Hemopo, it should be Fifita.
Frizell
00:07: joins ruck
00:20: pillar
00:25: joins ruck after charge down
00:57: first man to the ruck, attacks ball ineffectivelySA get penalty and kick
02:19 good shot on Vermeulen after kick off
02:51 joins ruck from wrong side on defense (lucky to not be penalized)
03:36 good clean on Vermeulen who is attacking the ballLots of kicking
06:00 ruck lean
06:03 ruck clean
08:19 attacks ball on the groundSBW penalized, they kick for goal
10:06 attempts charge down
11:10 line out win
11:23 clean out on the other side of the field - we win penalty
13:37 line out win
18;01 non dominant tackle
18:59 tackle
19:26 missed tackle on Kwagga
20:18 wins line outWe turn it over and they go on attack
25:20 attacks ruck as first man there - is cleaned out, but I like the way he followed the play across to get involved
We get penalized and they miss
29:20 joins ruck and secures ball (Todd turned it over)
30:22 carries for 2 meters
30:30 gets up and helps clean
32:18 non dominant tackle and allows player to offload
32:27 excellent clean to secure the ball
34:23 stopping tackle in midfield
35:20 first man to the ruck after Ioane drop - cleans SA player ineffectivelyPlays goes on and we score
40:05 joins ruck from wrong side but gets away with it, we clear and that’s the half
40:31 ruck lean
40:55 good clean
41:15 another clean
41:40 follows play and cleans again
42:02 effective clean
42:08 gets up and cleans again
42:31 ruck lean/clean
43:13 tackle
43:55 arrives at ruck to passDisappears to the wing for a minute or two
46:53 joins ruck
47:11 ruck lean
47:21 ruck lean
49:20 attacks ball at their ruck
49:30 strongish tackle on Etzebeth as he passes
49:47 second tackler and attacks ball
51:58 good clean
52:13 catch pass in the tackle
55:28 strong carry for 2-3 meters, gets us going forward (we win a penalty)
56:26 lifts Read
56:48 sort of tackle (guy is going down anyway)
57:22 gets inside ball and makes 6-7 easy metersBBBR goes down Fifita comes on
61:14 tackle
61:41 ruck clean
62:10 carries for 1-2 meters
62:32 tackle
63:37 run in space (10-12 meters) then passes to Bridge
64:13 ruck clean
64:27 catch/pass then big clean
64:44 ruck lean/protect HB for box kick, cleans arriving player
68:36 arrives at ruck to pass
69:02 arrives to clean but is ineffective and can’t prevent turnover penalty
71:48 cleans just in time
71:55 ruck lean/HB protection
72:09 overruns but comes back to clean
72:24 cleans the ball carrier passes
72:31 ruck leanWe get penalty
75:24 joins ruck, gets ball and gives it to HB
75:37 comes over to next ruck and makes a needed clean, is clearly fucked and out of gas - Fifita stations himself on the wing
76:04 cleans
76:28 ruck lean/clean
76:45 Goes offFifita
61:32 ruck lean
61:56 ruck lean
62:05 carries well for 3-4 meters
62:35 ineffective not quite tackle on Kwagga
62:39 ruck lean
63:46 catch, carry, 1 meter
64:06 ruck lean
64:25 ruck lean
64:46 another ruck lean coming as we get the penalty
67:39 line out take
68:25 catch/pass in the tackle
68:46 carries for 1-2 meters
71:53 ineffective join/clean
72:15 carries hard and makes 4-5 as we attack their line
72:31 ruck lean
74:26 catches kick off and gets taken out, we get a penalty
75:16 excellent lift on Read
76:10 ruck lean that turns to a real clean
78:11 attacks line out (that was not straight), joins maul
78:54 is offside and lucky not to get called
as Bridge comes charging in leaving the left flank completely exposed (Bridge does the same thing in the next passage and they take advantage) as Fifita comes across but not in time -
@Rancid-Schnitzel fuk me I haven’t got 3 weeks to write all the BS cheating we had to put up with in SA over the years drop goals that didn’t actually go between the posts etc
What a pack of whining piston wristed gibbons
I can’t wait for the rematch come WC time. -
@Chris said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
@Rancid-Schnitzel fuk me I haven’t got 3 weeks to write all the BS cheating we had to put up with in SA over the years drop goals that didn’t actually go between the posts etc
What a pack of whining piston wristed gibbons
I can’t wait for the rematch come WC time.It's Twitter and Twitter is an absolute sewer. Most Saffas who have been here have been great. Met plenty too. The worst ones will be the so-called neutrals who will be desperate to see us beaten.
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@Jaguares4real said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
It's cheating albeit low level
But why does BB feel to move the ball at all
Bearing in mind it's his home ground Does it indicate a lack of confidence?
He did after all miss the penaltyHe was probably unsure if he would make the distance. Or maybe there were other things going through that devious and diabolical mind. Seriously, who gives a sheet. It's like a kicker stealing a yard or two when kicking for touch.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
@Jaguares4real said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
It's cheating albeit low level
But why does BB feel to move the ball at all
Bearing in mind it's his home ground Does it indicate a lack of confidence?
He did after all miss the penaltyHe was probably unsure if he would make the distance. Or maybe there were other things going through that devious and diabolical mind. Seriously, who gives a sheet. It's like a kicker stealing a yard or two when kicking for touch.
It's a kicker's responsibility to grab a little more distance whenever possible isn't it? Same in any kicking ball code
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@canefan said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
@Jaguares4real said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
It's cheating albeit low level
But why does BB feel to move the ball at all
Bearing in mind it's his home ground Does it indicate a lack of confidence?
He did after all miss the penaltyHe was probably unsure if he would make the distance. Or maybe there were other things going through that devious and diabolical mind. Seriously, who gives a sheet. It's like a kicker stealing a yard or two when kicking for touch.
It's a kicker's responsibility to grab a little more distance whenever possible isn't it? Same in any kicking ball code
In afl that would be considered clever
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@kiwiinmelb said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
@canefan said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
@Jaguares4real said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
It's cheating albeit low level
But why does BB feel to move the ball at all
Bearing in mind it's his home ground Does it indicate a lack of confidence?
He did after all miss the penaltyHe was probably unsure if he would make the distance. Or maybe there were other things going through that devious and diabolical mind. Seriously, who gives a sheet. It's like a kicker stealing a yard or two when kicking for touch.
It's a kicker's responsibility to grab a little more distance whenever possible isn't it? Same in any kicking ball code
In afl that would be considered clever
Watch it happen with ever free kick and throw-in in football, most free kick or penalty kicks for touch in union and league
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@gt12 said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
The re-watch: Is it now time to leave Fifita behind?
In a gripping game that SA will feel unlucky about only drawing, a number of ABs showed the selectors why they shouldn’t be at the world cup. Some players appear past it, and some are just not good enough.
What is happening with our starting front row?
First, the starting front row performance was pretty woeful – with the possible exception of Taylor. Although it is their first AB game of the year, the invisibility of Owen Franks – except for his defensive lapses (including some comical misses) is a key issue. One hopes that it is form and both he and Moody have enough to turn it on in Japan. The stats show that Taylor had 6 metres, 1 bad throw, 9 tackles, and no misses. Moody gained 3 metres from 2 runs, including 1 terrible cold drop turnover. He did earn 1 turnover, and made 4 of his 5 tackles. Owen Franks had no stats on offence (according to Sanzar) – no carries, metres, or passes. However, on my rewatch, which I'll discus below, I did notice one carry at 42:27, where he gained about one metre. He made 5 tackles and had his customary 2 misses. I’m wondering why Ofa, Nepo, or Ta’avao can’t get a chance here – each can carry, clean, and tackle plus I wonder if there is so much difference in their scrummaging. Is this Cron focusing too much on the scrum?
SBW
Second, it’s probably time to recognize that SBW is not the key to breaking down the rush – in fact he can be targeted due to the way he carries. He had one magical pass (that to be fair most 12s should give), but that was it. Apart from that, our (starting) midfield was pretty up and down. It seemed that ALB was a little more dynamic when he came on, although the stats don’t really bear that out too much – probably because they don’t capture the metres gained from a couple of his passes. Anyway, by the numbers, SBW was penalized once, and turned over the ball twice, while making 7 tackles with no misses) and running for 16 metres off 10 carries. ALB had two runs with one defender beaten, 1 tackle with no misses, and had 3 passes, one of which found space.
The continuing problem at Six
Finally, six remains a key problem. It’s puzzling that they only gave Paps 4 minutes, but I think it’s because they wanted to see Frizell's contribution, and there was a bit of talk in the game thread about him being a bit anonymous, so after @Duluth suggested that he be the focus on today’s post, I looked at him and Fifita – always good for plenty of discussion – in my re-watch. First, the stats according to Sanzar:
Frizell won 3 lineouts, ran for 16 metres, made 5 tackles with 1 miss, and wasn’t penalized, conceding no turnovers. His fellow starters were busy, Todd had 14 tackles with no misses, and ran for 17 metres (more than any forward not named Dane Coles [31]). At eight, Read made 8 tackles with no misses. Looking at those stats, Frizell certainly looks like the weak link, but as my re-watch will show, he’s actually doing a fair bit of suitcase work. Furthermore, I really like the way he chases play, even to make a clean. That point separates him from Fifita, who after coming on to replace Retallick also won 3 lineouts, but made zero tackles in nearly 19 minutes with one offload while running for 4-6 metres off 5 carries. It’s not exactly what we’d like from a supposedly amazing athlete, but I think he just isn’t physical or active enough at this level – he’d end up on the wing or be the guy standing behind the ruck, rather that the guy who chases the play and make a strong contribution.
As you’ll see below, altogether I get about 40 odd ruck attendances for Frizell, at many of which he makes effective cleans.
On the other hand, I have Fifita with about 9 during his 19 minutes, so it seems similar right? It’s not.
Fifita is a ruck leaner – very seldom a ruck cleaner.
I’m no AB selector (clearly), but if one six is to be dropped from Frizell, Fifita, and Hemopo, it should be Fifita.
Frizell
00:07: joins ruck
00:20: pillar
00:25: joins ruck after charge down
00:57: first man to the ruck, attacks ball ineffectivelySA get penalty and kick
02:19 good shot on Vermeulen after kick off
02:51 joins ruck from wrong side on defense (lucky to not be penalized)
03:36 good clean on Vermeulen who is attacking the ballLots of kicking
06:00 ruck lean
06:03 ruck clean
08:19 attacks ball on the groundSBW penalized, they kick for goal
10:06 attempts charge down
11:10 line out win
11:23 clean out on the other side of the field - we win penalty
13:37 line out win
18;01 non dominant tackle
18:59 tackle
19:26 missed tackle on Kwagga
20:18 wins line outWe turn it over and they go on attack
25:20 attacks ruck as first man there - is cleaned out, but I like the way he followed the play across to get involved
We get penalized and they miss
29:20 joins ruck and secures ball (Todd turned it over)
30:22 carries for 2 meters
30:30 gets up and helps clean
32:18 non dominant tackle and allows player to offload
32:27 excellent clean to secure the ball
34:23 stopping tackle in midfield
35:20 first man to the ruck after Ioane drop - cleans SA player ineffectivelyPlays goes on and we score
40:05 joins ruck from wrong side but gets away with it, we clear and that’s the half
40:31 ruck lean
40:55 good clean
41:15 another clean
41:40 follows play and cleans again
42:02 effective clean
42:08 gets up and cleans again
42:31 ruck lean/clean
43:13 tackle
43:55 arrives at ruck to passDisappears to the wing for a minute or two
46:53 joins ruck
47:11 ruck lean
47:21 ruck lean
49:20 attacks ball at their ruck
49:30 strongish tackle on Etzebeth as he passes
49:47 second tackler and attacks ball
51:58 good clean
52:13 catch pass in the tackle
55:28 strong carry for 2-3 meters, gets us going forward (we win a penalty)
56:26 lifts Read
56:48 sort of tackle (guy is going down anyway)
57:22 gets inside ball and makes 6-7 easy metersBBBR goes down Fifita comes on
61:14 tackle
61:41 ruck clean
62:10 carries for 1-2 meters
62:32 tackle
63:37 run in space (10-12 meters) then passes to Bridge
64:13 ruck clean
64:27 catch/pass then big clean
64:44 ruck lean/protect HB for box kick, cleans arriving player
68:36 arrives at ruck to pass
69:02 arrives to clean but is ineffective and can’t prevent turnover penalty
71:48 cleans just in time
71:55 ruck lean/HB protection
72:09 overruns but comes back to clean
72:24 cleans the ball carrier passes
72:31 ruck leanWe get penalty
75:24 joins ruck, gets ball and gives it to HB
75:37 comes over to next ruck and makes a needed clean, is clearly fucked and out of gas - Fifita stations himself on the wing
76:04 cleans
76:28 ruck lean/clean
76:45 Goes offFifita
61:32 ruck lean
61:56 ruck lean
62:05 carries well for 3-4 meters
62:35 ineffective not quite tackle on Kwagga
62:39 ruck lean
63:46 catch, carry, 1 meter
64:06 ruck lean
64:25 ruck lean
64:46 another ruck lean coming as we get the penalty
67:39 line out take
68:25 catch/pass in the tackle
68:46 carries for 1-2 meters
71:53 ineffective join/clean
72:15 carries hard and makes 4-5 as we attack their line
72:31 ruck lean
74:26 catches kick off and gets taken out, we get a penalty
75:16 excellent lift on Read
76:10 ruck lean that turns to a real clean
78:11 attacks line out (that was not straight), joins maul
78:54 is offside and lucky not to get called
as Bridge comes charging in leaving the left flank completely exposed (Bridge does the same thing in the next passage and they take advantage) as Fifita comes across but not in timeWhich would explain why Shag seemed satisfied with Frizell.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
@Chris said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
@Rancid-Schnitzel fuk me I haven’t got 3 weeks to write all the BS cheating we had to put up with in SA over the years drop goals that didn’t actually go between the posts etc
What a pack of whining piston wristed gibbons
I can’t wait for the rematch come WC time.It's Twitter and Twitter is an absolute sewer. Most Saffas who have been here have been great. Met plenty too. The worst ones will be the so-called neutrals who will be desperate to see us beaten.
I saw a stat that relates to Twitter usage in the States but I’m sure it relates to all countries: 22% of adults are on Twitter. Further to that, 80% of tweets are from 10% of its users. So if you use Twitter as a source of information for anything, you are getting around 2.2% of the general populations opinions, most who are putting out clickbait for likes/retweets.
The moral of the story being Twitter doesn’t mean a God damn thing in the real world. Fake outrage galore.
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@Jaguares4real said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
What are they guilty of beyond having a reckless disregard for opponents at rucks?
But Saffas do love a good moan at Refs.....
Most sensible thing you've ever posted
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@Jaguares4real anyone would think players haven't tried this one on for decades....but it is only a crime when an AB does it I suppose...
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Just a quick thought about the Barrett incident. Was that at a penalty? Genuine question.
Because how could the All Blacks get a penalty because the Bokke never cheat.
Except maybe immediately prior to that penalty being awarded ... ?
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@gt12 said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
I’m wondering why Ofa, Nepo, or Ta’avao can’t get a chance here – each can carry, clean, and tackle plus I wonder if there is so much difference in their scrummaging. Is this Cron focusing too much on the scrum?
This has been my criticism of Cron for a while. You need to have a balance between scrummaging ability and workrate around the field, and I feel he's favouring the former more. Laulala is like Franks, in that he is a good scrummager but an ineffective ball-carrier and prone to miss too many tackles. Franks used to good at cleaning rucks but how many times did he do that on Sat night? (I don't know)
Faumuina was often criticised for struggling in the scrum, but he offered a point of difference when he came on the field. I think Ta'avao could do the same. The same for whoever is their reserve LH. We need to use our props more to get over the advantage line.
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Agreed. Cron is a legend, but I haven’t seen any innovation from him with the pack - he’s a scrum expert.
I think we got plenty of ball running from Moody for a while, but he’s gone missing - for that reason, Karl T’s health problems are bad, because when he and Ofa were healthy and fit early in the season, they were awesome together. If we used them together, we could also consider Ta’avao and Moli - perhaps loosing some set piece (although I wonder how much) and gaining a lot more around the field. I can’t see both Saders props (either actually) being dropped though.
I kind of think our front row will be better next year once the change has to be made.
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Yeah, when I watched the presser, I was surprised at how positive he was - once I started watching the replay, I could see why.
Honestly, he’s still a project and has some rough points (overrunning rucks then not joining through the gate is one dangerous one) but he positions himself to make an impact - he mostly took that midfield set up on defense (rather than Fifita who always looks for a wide spot), and is really active in helping set the defense around the ruck. If they keep playing him and gets a bit more accurate (positioning himself to be a real option as the dummy runner is another point he should work on), then he’ll find it easier to get back to clean (because he won’t be miles past the play when we go to the man behind), and will get more meters.
If they are going to experiment again, I’d put Hemopo in 6 against the wobblies to see if he has the speed to play there, with Frizell on the bench (Pat T to start) with Ardie. That would give plenty of options for some power and speed off the bench.
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@gt12 said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
Yeah, when I watched the presser, I was surprised at how positive he was - once I started watching the replay, I could see why.
I think he deserves a pass mark and nothing more.
I think Hansen's comment was grading him on a sliding scale. We've had so many poor efforts from our starting 6's in the past couple of seasons that someone not shitting the bed is considered worthy of praise
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@Duluth said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
@gt12 said in TRC: The All Blacks against the Springboks (version 98):
Yeah, when I watched the presser, I was surprised at how positive he was - once I started watching the replay, I could see why.
I think he deserves a pass mark and nothing more.
I think Hansen's comment was grading him on a sliding scale. We've had so many poor efforts from our starting 6's in the past couple of seasons that someone not shitting the bed is considered worthy of praise
Agreed. I think that if they see Hemopo as a 6, now is the time to try. Either that or commit to Frizell for better or worse as our workhorse to get to the last 25 minutes, when I suspect we’ll see Cane, Ardie, Read.
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@gt12 Thanks for doing the re-watch on Frizell. Seems like he was pretty solid, if not spectacular - and given the place where we find ourselves in terms of sixes, that's not to be sniffed at. Also a good effort to go nearly 80 minutes in a test on the back of 40 minutes of club rugby.
On Franks, his main contribution might be at the scrum, but from what I can see he's pretty excellent at it. Very rare that he gives away a scrum penalty or goes backwards - whereas at the Crusaders, Crockett, Moody and others give/gave away plenty on the loosehead side. Owen can catch and pass - not sure he can run, I don't recall him charging upfield ball in hand.
I guess a key question is whether the next best tighthead can consistently hold up in the scrum against fresh, elite props. One penalty is worth a lot of prop running metres!
