CWC Final - Black Caps v England
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@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Frank said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Can we talk about rugby please?
Not just yet.
Cheating pommy bastard, you're banned from commenting on cricket for at least 6 months.
Fair enough, that will still leave me three and a half years of gloating before we inevitably get dumped out in the first round next time.
What's the mood among English cricket fans? I imagine a fair bit of relief to finally get a WC... but in bizarre circumstances.
Difficult to tell atm. Relief to finally get over the line certainly but allied to real sympathy for the Craps and all the Kiwi fans. I would have hated to have lost like that and I agree with all on here that the boundaries rule is a bit shit but... they were the rules that we all signed up to. I'd guess it was put there by some numpty who knows little about the game but felt that this would encourage the big hitters. TV rules and all that.
I don't think that we over here will ever think yeah we won but *. It's a W and a World Cup.
TBH it's not the boundary thing that really annoys me it's the general incompetence of all three umpires regarding the Overthrows and the relevant law that irks me most. Oh for Reiffel and Gunner Gould - I would have taken Gould as an umpire in the final regardless of his nationality - Dharmasena and Erasmus are second rate to begin with
The wrong call on the overthrows is a bit of a shocker alright but I'm never a fan of "well if that hadn't have happened, then we would have won" as you never know if the same outcome will apply. Like if you lose a game of rugby by two points having missed a kickable penalty - the dynamics will the be different had the kick gone over. You can argue less so in cricket but there is no certainty.
Regarding the overthrow thing. I reckon it's more like a bad LBW decision.
It happens. You get bad calls. It's cricket. Move on.
That doesn't phase me in the slightest.
The thing that makes me angry, and also less inclined to be magnanimous to England, is the utter stupidity of the tie-breaker.
I'll forever * this result, and that's kind of unfair on them.
It's a really random metric to my mind and does not warrant awarding a World Cup. I hope I'd be as dismissive if the result was reversed with that same tie-breaker.
Now if the tie- breaker was:
- highest qualifier
- who beat who previously
Or even - wickets in the match (I know that would favour NZ, and some up the thread put forward a passionate yet incorrect argument against it)
I'd be far less angry.
Those reasons are just more Cricket than the stupidity foisted on the teams.
And I then could "celebrate" England as champions. I just can't be that charitable in these circumstances. I am not Kane.
I don't think it's fair on England, as much as it's unfair on NZ.
I think on the basis of my preferred tie-breakers England deserved the title. But now I'll always have that *
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@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
okay so while the emotions are slightly less raw, I'm going to think about some positives i can take out of the NZ performance and for the future:
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ODIs - far superior as a test of technique and a contest than any fucking t20 game - especially when the pitch is not a fucking road, Long live the ODi and T20Is can just fuck right off - I'm looking at the fishheads in charge of NZ cricket admin right here.
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Bowling - we're in a very good place for test cricket as well for the next couple of years - oh fuck that's right we're again hardly playing any fucking test cricket.
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Test Cricket - we should be playing ireland, Afghanistan and Bangladesh home and away regularly - we went ignored at test level for too long or given 3/4 day tests as a sop for us to think we are better or bigger than the new arrivals
Hear hear.
Especially the bold
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@booboo said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Regarding the overthrow thing. I reckon it's more like a bad LBW decision.
Nah, LBW is left up to interpretation - the law regarding overthrows wasn't even applied correctly - it's more like when a catch was not given because the umpires were looking for short runs by the batsmen.
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@shark said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Rosco will be around 38 and a very unlikely starter based on the longevity of NZ batsmen historically but stranger things have happened and he seems very fit.
It is concievable that he makes it. He doesn't have any of the degenerative injuries that usually see batsman forced out like knees or lower back - its mainly been his eyes, balls and that one leg injury and a broken arm against Australia.
It's probably more about the will to keep going and having a young family etc. Probably after this big summer he will sit down and have a think about it and maybe drop a format. I would hope the Test Championship might keep him interested until 2021 and from there perhaps 2023 is not a bridge too far? At any rate he probably doesn't need to be playing 5 match ODI series in Sri Lanka and UAE if he doesn't want to if it means elongating his career.
That's not to say we need him in four years, but it wouldn't hurt to have him playing a Waugh/Misbah/Jayawardne/Dilshan/Dhoni type role batting 6 maybe?
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Living in Australia, it's been amazing to see how much support the Aussies have given the crappers over the last few days. From their media to the fans, they have been with us and have felt our pain. Am going to do something that I have never done before and support Australia in the Ashes. Go Australia!
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@akan004 said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Living in Australia, it's been amazing to see how much support the Aussies have given the crappers over the last few days. From their media to the fans, they have been with us and have felt our pain. Am going to do something that I have never done before and support Australia in the Ashes. Go Australia!
I hate myself ... but I am too ...
Stockholm Syndrome?
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@Sneakdefreak said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@akan004 said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Frank said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Can we talk about rugby please?
Not just yet.
Cheating pommy bastard, you're banned from commenting on cricket for at least 6 months.
Fair enough, that will still leave me three and a half years of gloating before we inevitably get dumped out in the first round next time.
Who would want to gloat after a result like that? I certainly wouldn't had NZ been awarded the Cup.
I'd actually feel slightly sick about the result if we'd been the ones awarded the Cup. Thankfully there are some good memories I cxan bask in - like knocking out India in the SF - that is something i will saviour for fucking years
We all know Kane would have declared the match a tie and share the spoils with the English team because he's apparently the reincarnation of Mother Theresa in cricket pads.
Sir Kane to you, my dear man.
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@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@No-Quarter said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Frank said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Can we talk about rugby please?
Not just yet.
Cheating pommy bastard, you're banned from commenting on cricket for at least 6 months.
Fair enough, that will still leave me three and a half years of gloating before we inevitably get dumped out in the first round next time.
What's the mood among English cricket fans? I imagine a fair bit of relief to finally get a WC... but in bizarre circumstances.
Difficult to tell atm. Relief to finally get over the line certainly but allied to real sympathy for the Craps and all the Kiwi fans. I would have hated to have lost like that and I agree with all on here that the boundaries rule is a bit shit but... they were the rules that we all signed up to. I'd guess it was put there by some numpty who knows little about the game but felt that this would encourage the big hitters. TV rules and all that.
I don't think that we over here will ever think yeah we won but *. It's a W and a World Cup.
TBH it's not the boundary thing that really annoys me it's the general incompetence of all three umpires regarding the Overthrows and the relevant law that irks me most. Oh for Reiffel and Gunner Gould - I would have taken Gould as an umpire in the final regardless of his nationality - Dharmasena and Erasmus are second rate to begin with
The wrong call on the overthrows is a bit of a shocker alright but I'm never a fan of "well if that hadn't have happened, then we would have won" as you never know if the same outcome will apply. Like if you lose a game of rugby by two points having missed a kickable penalty - the dynamics will the be different had the kick gone over. You can argue less so in cricket but there is no certainty.
Missing a kickable penalty is on the players - correct application of the laws is the responsibility and raison d'être of umpires and unlike an lbw, there is no interpretation or umpires judgement - it was a black/white application. all three umpires got the relevant law completely wrong despite having the timeand opportunity to get it right - Stokes should have been off strike....
My point about a different dynamic is right there. Not arguing about the wrong Umps call BTW.
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@rotated said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@shark said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Rosco will be around 38 and a very unlikely starter based on the longevity of NZ batsmen historically but stranger things have happened and he seems very fit.
It is concievable that he makes it. He doesn't have any of the degenerative injuries that usually see batsman forced out like knees or lower back - its mainly been his eyes, balls and that one leg injury and a broken arm against Australia.
It's probably more about the will to keep going and having a young family etc. Probably after this big summer he will sit down and have a think about it and maybe drop a format. I would hope the Test Championship might keep him interested until 2021 and from there perhaps 2023 is not a bridge too far? At any rate he probably doesn't need to be playing 5 match ODI series in Sri Lanka and UAE if he doesn't want to if it means elongating his career.
That's not to say we need him in four years, but it wouldn't hurt to have him playing a Waugh/Misbah/Jayawardne/Dilshan/Dhoni type role batting 6 maybe?
Well if he drops T20s he should be right because we have fuck all test and ODI cricket in our future.
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@shark said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Well if he drops T20s he should be right because we have fuck all test and ODI cricket in our future.
We have 9 tests this summer, 7 of which are against blue ribbon opponents! But yes, a bucket load of T20s and ODIs.
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@Catogrande I agree about the dynamics but the caveat to that is there were only two balls remaining and Stokes would have been off strike. At that late stage of the game it was hugely influential whereas if it had been 10 overs earlier it would have been an interesting pub quiz what happened next but no more.
I'm not bitter - I am hugely disappointed for the team who I think were the better side on the day. I think the arbitrary nature of the boundary countback is ridiculous but that given England reamed us in pool play and finished above us it's hard to argue they are undeserving. Personally I'd have had another Super Over, but even that is a less than satisfactory way to win/lose
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@MN5 I think you are confusing Hadlee the test cricketer with the ODI one.
Paddles consistency made him a little predictable. His figures are great but he bowled in an era when 220 was a great score and the opposition were prepared to just see him off.
I would have Bond ahead of him if I was picking an all time ODI side. Hadlee would be a good first change option to keep it tight in the middle overs.
I would say Kane was already a greater ODI player for NZ and probably Roscoe too.
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@MN5 said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Bovidae said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 Refer back to the 2016 T20 WC tournament in India. Santner and Sodhi were very good in Indian conditions. Santner took 4/11 vs India off his 4 overs and Sodhi 3/18.
pffft that's like saying someone had a good Sevens tourny so let's get them in the ABs !
But seriously, that's a brilliant effort from them both.
Joe Rokocoko 2002...
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@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@booboo said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Regarding the overthrow thing. I reckon it's more like a bad LBW decision.
Nah, LBW is left up to interpretation - the law regarding overthrows wasn't even applied correctly - it's more like when a catch was not given because the umpires were looking for short runs by the batsmen.
Yeah given the factors at play with an LBW decision - height, outside the line, swing of the ball, etc - as we know they are variable.
There is really only one question with this, did they cross?
I was devastated that morning for the loss and seeing the disappointment of the players, but by Monday night I felt pretty proud as a Kiwi and for what we had been part of and the win against India and the drawn final loss to England.
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@dogmeat said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@MN5 I think you are confusing Hadlee the test cricketer with the ODI one.
Paddles consistency made him a little predictable. His figures are great but he bowled in an era when 220 was a great score and the opposition were prepared to just see him off.
I would have Bond ahead of him if I was picking an all time ODI side. Hadlee would be a good first change option to keep it tight in the middle overs.
I would say Kane was already a greater ODI player for NZ and probably Roscoe too.
I hear some of this and it’s tough to compare eras but his stats don’t lie. As you say the game was very different in those days and economy rates for one were a lot lower.
Of course Rossco and KW have it over Paddles in terms of longevity but Paddles can’t help that!
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@dogmeat said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@Catogrande I agree about the dynamics but the caveat to that is there were only two balls remaining and Stokes would have been off strike. At that late stage of the game it was hugely influential whereas if it had been 10 overs earlier it would have been an interesting pub quiz what happened next but no more.
I'm not bitter - I am hugely disappointed for the team who I think were the better side on the day. I think the arbitrary nature of the boundary countback is ridiculous but that given England reamed us in pool play and finished above us it's hard to argue they are undeserving. Personally I'd have had another Super Over, but even that is a less than satisfactory way to win/lose
3 from 2 with your best batsman facing and he didn't deliver the win or 4 from 2 with a tailender yet to face a ball on strike. Now he could have scrambled a single and Stokes would have then had to go for the boundary - so yes it could have been different but imagine if they had applied the law correctly and Boult had yorked Rashid and Wood.
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@ACT-Crusader said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@SynicBast said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
@booboo said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
Regarding the overthrow thing. I reckon it's more like a bad LBW decision.
Nah, LBW is left up to interpretation - the law regarding overthrows wasn't even applied correctly - it's more like when a catch was not given because the umpires were looking for short runs by the batsmen.
Yeah given the factors at play with an LBW decision - height, outside the line, swing of the ball, etc - as we know they are variable.
There is really only one question with this, did they cross?
I was devastated that morning for the loss and seeing the disappointment of the players, but by Monday night I felt pretty proud as a Kiwi and for what we had been part of and the win against India and the drawn final loss to England.
Even with ball tracking an LBW decision (and a close one especially) is as much an art as a science. An umpire getting an LBW decision wrong is equivalent to a batsman getting done by a peach.
The boundary call on the other hand is a batsman leaving a straight one and getting bowled. It's a basic error and one that a batsman should feel terrible about.
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@ACT-Crusader said in CWC Final - Black Caps v England:
There is really only one question with this, did they cross?
No they didn't at the time of the throw (apparently it is clear from video). The wording of the law isn't exactly obvious though:
"together with the run in progress if they had already crossed at the instant of the throw or act."
So the throw seems obvious enough - the time that the ball leaves Guppy's hand (so one run + the 4) but what is the "act"? When it comes off Stoke's bat? Are they talking about someone kicking the ball, rather than throwing?
