Hurricanes 2020
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@Jaguares4real
So it down to Hurricanes and Chiefs to raise standards and be competitive
No its not possible now. Its now up to the NZRU to finally act and set up a financial (or non financial) structure so its impossible for one team to be stacked with ABs. At present the opposite is occurring. ABs earn more money and non AB who are good leave for obvious reasons. Or choose the Crusaders if wanted by them as anyone looks better playing in a strong team. For example J Barrett will look (much) better playing for a Crusader team stacked with ABs
And any NZ team that can attract all the best players as is happening now will almost always win unless they have a crap coach. It should have been addressed a long time ago. NZ always winning is bad enough for super rugby but one NZ team always winning is far worse
At least Aust and SA has done sometime to reduce their team numbers (Aust can really only support three teams though). But a lot more needs to be done. Starting with NZ ensuring a more even distribution of players. Maybe allowing a small number of NZ players to play overseas and still be eligible for the ABs. Finals must be rotated by country etc. But NZ needs to act first.
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Wait a minute. Exactly who are all these ABs that the Crusaders have been luring away from other teams? What utter rubbish. Teams should be encouraged to develop long term success and part of that is holding onto the talent you have developed.
Forcing players to move completely misses the fact that they are free to move elsewhere at the end of their contracts. More often than not they stay with the successful team where they are happy. Forcing them out is going to push more players overseas.Oh and BBBR, Cane, TJP, BB, Ardie, Coles, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith, Ioane, Dmac, ALB and a shit load of other good players say the idea that all the good players in NZ are stacked in the Crusaders is bullshit.
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Well said
I'm hearing alot of whinging which essentially boils down to the Crusaders are too good atm
Lets screw them up a little by forcing players to move to weaker NZ teams in Super Rugby
But that won't work
Who the fuck in their right mind want to play for the Blues
Highlanders are bordering on a development team with a good hooker and halfback combination
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@pukunui said in Hurricanes 2020:
Wait a minute. Exactly who are all these ABs that the Crusaders have been luring away from other teams? What utter rubbish. Teams should be encouraged to develop long term success and part of that is holding onto the talent you have developed.
Forcing players to move completely misses the fact that they are free to move elsewhere at the end of their contracts. More often than not they stay with the successful team where they are happy. Forcing them out is going to push more players overseas.Oh and BBBR, Cane, TJP, BB, Ardie, Coles, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith, Ioane, Dmac, ALB and a shit load of other good players say the idea that all the good players in NZ are stacked in the Crusaders is bullshit.
At present the Crusaders can attract the best young talent because they have the most ABs. Would say Ennor be at the Crusaders or J Barrett be considering the Crusaders if they were a team like the Blues.
But they key is for the good of super rugby NZ must start spreading the best players out more evenly. This isn't happening and the ways its going it will only get worse. Maybe make a super rugby team pick up all or a % of an AB's salary up to a certain much higher level than at present. So financially it will be impossible to have more than say 8 current ABs in one team.
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@Jaguares4real said in Hurricanes 2020:
Well said
I'm hearing alot of whinging which essentially boils down to the Crusaders are too good atm
Who the fuck in their right mind want to play for the Blues
Highlanders are bordering on a development team with a good hooker and halfback combination
and you think this is a good thing? Its a poor situation that the NZU has watched happen. Its not only bad for NZ rugby but bad for super rugby as well.
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The crusaders are stacked with talent because they recruit and develop well. Pretty much the entire squad are guys who either made their first super rugby appearance for the Crusaders or who had been in another setup but not signed/resigned. Most of them have come through Canterbury in the NPC as well.
A salary cap would just push more guys overseas because in reduces the total amount of money available to pay players.
I don't think that the crusaders are as far ahead of the pack as people make out. The Hurricanes outplayed our forwards in the last two match ups. The chiefs tore us to pieces in Suva. The blues would have one in the first round bar a rookie missing a shot at goal. The jags might have won that final if not for a lack of compsure.
The difference isn't the quality of player, but the focus and determination, particularly on defence, seldom making mistakes. That's down to an exceptional coaching group (definitely the best since Rennie and his crew were runningtthe chiefs and probably better than the) and a very experienced core. No amount of forced transfers will help other teams achieve that. In fact, while other teams don't have that a salary cap will hinder them as they'll be losing top talent too. Every salary cap league I can think of (NRL, A League and NFL) have teams that constantly succeed despite the cap.
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NZ rugby has so much money. This won't decrease (it will though if something is not done about this bullshit boring uneven super rugby set up) but needs to be allocated ina way to ensure a more even distribution of players
Super rugby could be great again but not if NZ stacks (and has a structure to almost ensure this) one team with half or more of the top players
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Success is cyclical. The Crusaders didn't win anything for 8 years under Blackadder and this will happen again.
I put a lot of our recent success down to the current coaching staff, not the fact that we are "hoarding ABs"
Rugby in NZ is still regional/ tribal to an extent, I like supporting players that come through the Canterbury development system, I get to see them play club rugby in Chch, then for Canterbury and then for the Crusaders. Players shifting all the time turns it into the joke that American sport is.
The complaints on here reek of Hurricanes fans being bitter about the prospects of losing the Barretts. Jordie came through club rugby and NPC down here and Razor has always said he'll return at some point, and Beauden is supposed to be going to the Blues anyway.
It's pretty rare an established frontline AB moves to another franchise.
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Geez, what a load of cr*p. If they want franchises other than the Crusaders to be better, start improving your player identification and development. Give young players an opportunity to play at SR level instead of keeping them on ice. Improve culture, where needed. Get better coaches, who can develop better players and better game plans.
You can't convince me that there is not enough talent in the Blues, Chiefs and Hurricanes catchment to develop into good SR players, or even ABs. The Highlanders may depend on players from other catchments for demographic reasons. If franchises don't have enough talent in their squad, it's because they haven't identified the right talent, haven't developed that talent well, or their culture sucks. Most talented players don't want to move away from family if they can stay at a franchise that can develop them into good SR players and/or ABs.
If the rumoured move from Ofa Tu'ungafasi to the Saders happens, I'd not be in favour of that. The Blues sure need him, he's achieved becoming an AB, and he has come through their academy.
If Frizell moves to the Saders, at least he's going to the franchise of his NPC team ( Ta$man). But the Landers are already losing so many players and he became an AB while playing for them, so I'd not support that either, although he played 2 seasons for Ta$man before joining the Landers, so he's possibly been in the Crusaders set-up before moving.
If Jordie moves to the Saders, I've less of a problem with it, because he has been developed by Canterbury and the Crusaders academy, and if BB moves on from the Canes, he'll just want to join his other brother in Chch. Instead of saying that "he will look (much) better playing for a Crusader team stacked with ABs", you could just make the honest assessment that he may actually improve as a player and will not only look better, but become a better player at the Crusaders due to better coaching etc. But still, I'm not convinced the Crusaders need him, so unless he's unhappy at the Canes, let him stay there.
However, limiting the number of All Blacks at franchises (read: Crusaders), denies the truth that all of the Crusaders' current ABs were developed into All Blacks by the Crusaders. If you limit the number of ABs (by capping the allocated budget for ABs per franchise), you're forcing some players to move to other franchises. Have you ever thought of the possibility that that might result in those players having to play for teams they don't want to play for (possibly affecting their motivation)? Or those players performance dropping because they work with lesser coaches and trainers, play under inadequate game plans, or function in a team culture that doesn't suit them?
So I've some sympathy for putting some mild restrictions on player movement (i.e. established SR players, who have been developed by and get sufficient game time at their current franchise) and to a degree it already happens; I'm quite sure NZR had a big role in keeping Akira (and Rieko?) Ioane at the Blues before the last time he re-signed.
However, I'm absolutely against forcing players to move from one franchise to the other (read: from the Crusaders to another franchise). I'm quite sure if NZR would want to force some of the Crusaders players to play for other franchises, they'd opt for playing overseas instead. Actually, that may also be the consequence if you completely stop players from other franchises from moving to the Crusaders.
I'm also against stopping a player, whose development is stalling at another franchise, or who doesn't get sufficient game time at that franchsie, or who doesn't even get a contract at that franchise, from moving to another franchise if he can improve his carreer prospects. It happens in every profession. If you can't improve, can't get a promotion or a pay rise, you look for another employer where you can achieve that.
And while we're at it, some people are full of hypocrisy, too. They are complaining about good players, who are important to a franchise, moving to the Crusaders. But what about Lomax, who's extremely important to the Highlanders, moving to the Hurricanes? I haven't heard a Canes fan saying that that should not be possible because it's damaging the Highlanders (who have by far the smallest player pool). I don't know how Blues fans rate Scrafton, but he's also moving from a weaker performing team to the Canes. Should NZR stop that, too?
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@SammyC said in Hurricanes 2020:
Success is cyclical. The Crusaders didn't win anything for 8 years under Blackadder and this will happen again.
I put a lot of our recent success down to the current coaching staff, not the fact that we are "hoarding ABs"
Rugby in NZ is still regional/ tribal to an extent, I like supporting players that come through the Canterbury development system, I get to see them play club rugby in Chch, then for Canterbury and then for the Crusaders. Players shifting all the time turns it into the joke that American sport is.
The complaints on here reek of Hurricanes fans being bitter about the prospects of losing the Barretts. Jordie came through club rugby and NPC down here and Razor has always said he'll return at some point, and Beauden is supposed to be going to the Blues anyway.
It's pretty rare an established frontline AB moves to another franchise.
It's a nice little nod to the Crusaders success that whingers will look to blame everything but their own back yard.
I have no problem with the Crusaders success. Sure, I wish it was the Chiefs but I'm not going to cry at NZRU for making it unfair. That is incredible and really weak-minded
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@Winger said in Hurricanes 2020:
NZ rugby has so much money. This won't decrease (it will though if something is not done about this bullshit boring uneven super rugby set up) but needs to be allocated ina way to ensure a more even distribution of players
Super rugby could be great again but not if NZ stacks (and has a structure to almost ensure this) one team with half or more of the top players
But that second paragraph is rubbish. It simply isn’t true that half or more of the top players are stacked in the Crusaders.
Super rugby’s biggest “fairness” issue is by far the stupid conference system where teams are potentially assigned an artifict advantage because their home country wanted TV revenue.
That is getting fixed.Forced migration of player will kill Super rugby off completely.
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@Winger said in Hurricanes 2020:
NZ rugby has so much money. This won't decrease (it will though if something is not done about this bullshit boring uneven super rugby set up) but needs to be allocated ina way to ensure a more even distribution of players
Super rugby could be great again but not if NZ stacks (and has a structure to almost ensure this) one team with half or more of the top players
So then how do you push players out of the crusaders without reducing what they spend? Does someone at NZRU HQ make decisions about who plays where? Do we have a draft every season and each team picks in reverse order?
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That's what needs to be addressed. something I can almost ensure the NZRU hasn't done. And its not just about the Canes. i want to want to watch the Blues playing the Crusaders again. Or watch a final with the outcome unknown.
And face it. Super rugby is boring and a bit pointless at present. As the winner is known with 99% certainty before the season kicks off. It appalling that NZR has sat back and watch this outcome occur.
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@Stargazer said in Hurricanes 2020:
And while we're at it, some people are full of hypocrisy, too. They are complaining about good players, who are important to a franchise, moving to the Crusaders. But what about Lomax, who's extremely important to the Highlanders, moving to the Hurricanes? I haven't heard a Canes fan saying that that should not be possible because it's damaging the Highlanders (who have by far the smallest player pool). I don't know how Blues fans rate Scrafton, but he's also moving from a weaker performing team to the Canes. Should NZR stop that, too?
Neither of these two are current ABs.
Scrafton got a 4/10 rating in stuff for the Blues season recently. And Lomax was born in the Canes region and is moving back home for family reasons.
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@Winger said in Hurricanes 2020:
That's what needs to be addressed. something I can almost ensure the NZRU hasn't done. And its not just about the Canes. i want to want to watch the Blues playing the Crusaders again. Or watch a final with the outcome unknown.
And face it. Super rugby is boring and a bit pointless at present. As the winner is known with 99% certainty before the season kicks off. It appalling that NZR has sat back and watch this outcome occur.
What needs to be addressed? The NZRU clearly take an interest in ensuring that franchises are competent as they've stepped in to the blues to try and revive the franchise. Likewise they've be involved with the Highlanders in the past.
They already have a salary cap in place as there are spending limits and maximum salaries for players. So it's not possible for a franchise to buy up all the talent. Direct contracting further eases the spread of talent as a team can't hoard players in an NPC team and prevent anyone else from getting them.
The only other options are for the NZRU to further reduce salary caps, taking money out of players pockets, or forcing players to move when a franchise is to good, be it via a regular redraft, an all black cap (no more than ten in a squad or something), or just discretionary decisions from the centre. All are terrible ideas and won't achieve what you want but will be players and teams unhappy.
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The main advantage the Crusaders have is a core group of very very good players who have been there a long time, and form the bulk of the team. That's an advantage that can not be over looked.
Of course, the fact that this group of players follows another group of very very good players who were there a long time should probably indicate they are are doing something right, and the other sides should be looking at it. And you know what, if they haven't after 20 years of sustained success, then more fool them.
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@Jaguares4real said in Hurricanes 2020:
Highlanders are bordering on a development team with a good hooker and halfback combination
Yet still good enough to defeat the Jaguares 32 - 27
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@mariner4life said in Hurricanes 2020:
The main advantage the Crusaders have is a core group of very very good players who have been there a long time, and form the bulk of the team. That's an advantage that can not be over looked.
Of course, the fact that this group of players follows another group of very very good players who were there a long time should probably indicate they are are doing something right, and the other sides should be looking at it. And you know what, if they haven't after 20 years of sustained success, then more fool them.
Yeah, it can't hurt young guys to come in and see the standards being set by the likes of Read, Todd, Whitelock and Crotty and think 'right, this is what it means to play pro rugby.'
I think in was telling that when there was that injury break around the 30 minute mark and the crusaders went into a huddle Read was right there laying down the law. Whitelock is definitely a great leader, but there are plenty of other guys who are immense leaders and command the respect of the whole group.
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@Higgins said in Hurricanes 2020:
@Jaguares4real said in Hurricanes 2020:
Highlanders are bordering on
Yet still good enough to defeat the Jaguares 32 - 27
In 2019 they did
In 2020 the Highlanders will resemble a development team with a good hooker and halfback combination
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@Cyclops said in Hurricanes 2020:
@mariner4life said in Hurricanes 2020:
The main advantage the Crusaders have is a core group of very very good players who have been there a long time, and form the bulk of the team. That's an advantage that can not be over looked.
Of course, the fact that this group of players follows another group of very very good players who were there a long time should probably indicate they are are doing something right, and the other sides should be looking at it. And you know what, if they haven't after 20 years of sustained success, then more fool them.
Yeah, it can't hurt young guys to come in and see the standards being set by the likes of Read, Todd, Whitelock and Crotty and think 'right, this is what it means to play pro rugby.'
I think in was telling that when there was that injury break around the 30 minute mark and the crusaders went into a huddle Read was right there laying down the law. Whitelock is definitely a great leader, but there are plenty of other guys who are immense leaders and command the respect of the whole group.
i made pretty much the same point in the Blues thread i think. Great leaders in the playing group is a huge thing for player development. It also allows mid-level players to raise their performances above what they may otherwise produce.
The Crusaders are benefiting now from really good balance to their list as well. A perfect mix of veterans, mid-career pros, and excited youngsters. Not every team has that right now. The key is retention.
