NZ All Time XI
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@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@canefan said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Donsteppa said in NZ All Time XI:
Certainly impressive but also achieved cos he preferred to play county cricket than for his country.
I was only a kid but I found that idea odd. I only remember him fronting for NZ late in his career. Business decision?
I heard he fell out with the selectors.
In saying that’s he’s well in the discussion for a spot as an opener in our all time team but if he played more he’d be a certainty.
First class records can be misleading. Lots of guys ( mainly English ) like Graeme Hick, Mark Ramprakash, Mike Gatting and Allan Lamb had formidable records in county cricket but were pretty bog standard test players. Apparently it’s not the best breeding ground in many cases.
I remember when he came back to the NZ team. His class was evident. I still remember him being the first player I'd seen stepping to leg to expose his stumps and cracking the ball over the off. Amazing
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@MN5 NZ Cricket was amateur in every sense of the word.
Turner had expectations that it would be more professional. Not just financially but attitudinally.
For many years he had combined county cricket with domestic cricket in NZ and test appearances but he was definitely a prickly bastard and had a falling out with the administrators, but really his attitude wasn't all that different to Hadlee's. Turner was ambitious and single-minded - very aware of his career stats.
His career highlights are irrefutable though. For a long time he carried NZ batting and he enjoyed success in every format he played and at all levels.
The County cricket scene in the 1970's was very different to what it morphed into by the time Hicks etc.
Overseas players dominated. Every team had a world class bowling attack. In many ways it was harder for a batsman than a lot of test cricket. It was also an unrelenting grind. Turners first class performances should not be under-rated just because the county game became much less competitive.
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Victor Meldrewreplied to dogmeat on 19 Mar 2023, 21:22 last edited by Victor Meldrew 19 Mar 2023, 21:28
His exploits in the West Indies in '71 and against Oz in' 74 alone should get him his slot. Ironically, he never repeated that Test form in England for some reason.
His Test average of near 45 is just the icing on the cake in many ways as he really did give his all and his professional experience for the team on and off the field was incalculable.
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Turner started out as a blocker - he was noted for his slow scoring and being hard to shift. But he transformed himself by the end of his career such that he hit 300 in a day aged 35.
In the 1973 series (the Congdon tour) he was the star man having hit 1,000 runs before the end of May which was a holy grail in England - he was the first since 1938 to do it and only Hick has managed it since. By the time of the test series he seemed burnt out and failed to score many runs.
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@KiwiPie I think he started out as a dasher in NZ but his technique got found out when he started with Worcester so he remodelled himself as the Kiwi Boycott. Then in his later years reverted more to his younger style
He approached that 1,000 runs target like Hadlee chasing the Double. He looked at the tour itinerary and marked out a plan to get there. Like I said driven and single minded.
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All good info on him from some of our older ferners who remember him
An average of 44 as an opener in that era is excellent, it is a real shame he didn’t play much more than he did.
Also sounds like a rather difficult fellow to get on with which didn’t help.
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Do you guys remember Turner in the commentary box? I recall him as being very serious, very dour. Not surprising that he wasn't everyone's cup of tea.
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@Crazy-Horse said in NZ All Time XI:
Do you guys remember Turner in the commentary box? I recall him as being very serious, very dour. Not surprising that he wasn't everyone's cup of tea.
He was certainly no Kerry “Skull” O’Keefe that’s for sure
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He was also instrumental in our golden years of the 80's. As coach he installed a professional approach and made us hard to beat.
A decade on and his disciplinarian approach didn't go down so well with the likes of Cairns and Parore. Grumpy Turner didn't like precious dicks behaving like prima donnas. Unfortunately? player power won out and NZC ditched Turner.
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So circling back ...is Turner on the NZ Mt Rushmore?
Sounds like a pretty good argument right now to suggest he might be
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@bayimports said in NZ All Time XI:
So circling back ...is Turner on the NZ Mt Rushmore?
Sounds like a pretty good argument right now to suggest he might be
Probably.
Bearing in mind the big jump from 2nd to 3rd I think Ross Taylor deserves some thought at the very least.
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@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@bayimports said in NZ All Time XI:
So circling back ...is Turner on the NZ Mt Rushmore?
Sounds like a pretty good argument right now to suggest he might be
Probably.
Bearing in mind the big jump from 2nd to 3rd I think Ross Taylor deserves some thought at the very least.
i watched Ross hole out to cow corner at crucial times and walk off looking mournfully at the toe of his bat far too often to raise him to such a lofty position
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@dogmeat said in NZ All Time XI:
A decade on and his disciplinarian approach didn't go down so well with the likes of Cairns and Parore. Grumpy Turner didn't like precious dicks behaving like prima donnas. Unfortunately? player power won out and NZC ditched Turner
Turner making Lee Germon captain was very much a 'cut your nose off to spite your face' scenario.
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@mariner4life said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@bayimports said in NZ All Time XI:
So circling back ...is Turner on the NZ Mt Rushmore?
Sounds like a pretty good argument right now to suggest he might be
Probably.
Bearing in mind the big jump from 2nd to 3rd I think Ross Taylor deserves some thought at the very least.
i watched Ross hole out to cow corner at crucial times and walk off looking mournfully at the toe of his bat far too often to raise him to such a lofty position
All tortured genius’s have their flaws.
and given we’ve had fuck all of them he gets a mention. Our top test run scorer for awhile til KW took over.
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@mikedogz said in NZ All Time XI:
I like this video.
The Yorker that got Gilchrist is the delivery that always plays out in my head whenever the name Shane Bond comes up.
What a delivery!!!!
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@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
All good info on him from some of our older ferners who remember him
I haven't been into cricket for a good few years now but, from what I have seen, using the BC's of the last 3-4 years as the basis for an All Time XI makes perfect sense - outstanding generation of players.
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I heard a remarkable stat today on The Top Order podcast.
That Kane Williamson averages 81.5 in NZ test victories, in 40 test wins.
Which is second only to Bradman, who averaged 130ish in test victories.
I'm off to do some statsguruing .....
Edit. here is the query: https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=batting_average;qualmin1=2000;qualval1=runs;result=1;template=results;type=batting
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^^ Which makes me wonder about the Kane v Hadlee (fore to unthinkable) discussion as the NZ GOAT.
So, did the same for Hadlee, but bowling.
And, well well well ....
Screenshot 2023-03-22 at 4.20.50 PM
Also, Allrounder ranking (still based on the bowling query conditions, so if say - you included a threshold of 100 runs, as well as the 100 wickets condition I was using, he would miss cut).
Screenshot 2023-03-22 at 4.22.37 PM -
Watling should be worth a look for the Mount Rushmore top four.
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@mikedogz said in NZ All Time XI:
Watling should be worth a look for the Mount Rushmore top four.
Best test keeper surely?
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Watling gets overlooked because Baz was so much more exciting.
But yeah, he’d be my number one keeper ( but then again Blundell is just continuing the trend )
It’s a pretty thankless task though, when one thinks “all time cricket legend” it’s very, very rarely a keeper who gets nominated.
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Hate to go past Smithy as keeper, because childhood hero ...
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@booboo said in NZ All Time XI:
Hate to go past Smithy as keeper, because childhood hero ...
Goes to show how old Smithy is though huh ?
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@booboo Talking to oneself is the first sign of madness.
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@dogmeat said in NZ All Time XI:
@Rapido That's a lot of wins for Boult and a fair batting average for a guy batting 10 or 11. Must be padded with a lot of NO.
That guy Sobers looks pretty good.
That's interesting, I hadn't noticed him in that table.
I know at one point he was statistically the best number 11 in history, he may still be.
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@Rapido said in NZ All Time XI:
@dogmeat said in NZ All Time XI:
@Rapido That's a lot of wins for Boult and a fair batting average for a guy batting 10 or 11. Must be padded with a lot of NO.
That guy Sobers looks pretty good.
That's interesting, I hadn't noticed him in that table.
I know at one point he was statistically the best number 11 in history, he may still be.
But what I did find interesting there was the difference in bowling wickets (and average) for Boult v Hadlee in victories.
The much lower wickets ratio would be explained by the 4 seamers balance that Boult operated in, sharing them around more.
The higher averages can be explained probably in part bu the patterns of NZ home wins in this era. Usually a cheap first innings but a real attritional grind in the second innings.
Did a query for NZ bowlers only - in victories:
https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=bowling_average;qualmin2=50;qualval2=wickets;result=1;team=5;template=results;type=bowlingScreenshot 2023-03-23 at 10.59.32 AM
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@dogmeat said in NZ All Time XI:
@Rapido That's a lot of wins for Boult and a fair batting average for a guy batting 10 or 11. Must be padded with a lot of NO.
That guy Sobers looks pretty good.
Imagine the IPL bidding for Sobers at his peak. That would be a good topic actually, your all time world T20 team for players at their peak. King Viv, Joel Garner etc etc
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@dogmeat said in NZ All Time XI:
@Rapido That's a lot of wins for Boult and a fair batting average for a guy batting 10 or 11. Must be padded with a lot of NO.
That guy Sobers looks pretty good.
Boult would bat nine most teams.
For a country that gave the world Chris Martin I have to say I can’t think of any genuine donkeys with the bat. Look how well Matt Henry has done as the latest example
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@KiwiPie said in NZ All Time XI:
@dogmeat said in NZ All Time XI:
@Rapido That's a lot of wins for Boult and a fair batting average for a guy batting 10 or 11. Must be padded with a lot of NO.
That guy Sobers looks pretty good.
Imagine the IPL bidding for Sobers at his peak. That would be a good topic actually, your all time world T20 team for players at their peak. King Viv, Joel Garner etc etc
A current player but Kohli's record in the shorter formats is absolutely unbelievable. Greatest ever T20 and ODI batsmen from what I can see in terms of sheer runs scored plus averages north of 50.
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@No-Quarter said in NZ All Time XI:
@KiwiPie said in NZ All Time XI:
@dogmeat said in NZ All Time XI:
@Rapido That's a lot of wins for Boult and a fair batting average for a guy batting 10 or 11. Must be padded with a lot of NO.
That guy Sobers looks pretty good.
Imagine the IPL bidding for Sobers at his peak. That would be a good topic actually, your all time world T20 team for players at their peak. King Viv, Joel Garner etc etc
A current player but Kohli's record in the shorter formats is absolutely unbelievable. Greatest ever T20 and ODI batsmen from what I can see in terms of sheer runs scored plus averages north of 50.
kohli's 50-over stats are frankly ridiculous. Gets a century every 6 innings. Tendulkar is the only player to have more 100s than him. the difference is 3. the difference in games is 189.
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@mariner4life said in NZ All Time XI:
@No-Quarter said in NZ All Time XI:
@KiwiPie said in NZ All Time XI:
@dogmeat said in NZ All Time XI:
@Rapido That's a lot of wins for Boult and a fair batting average for a guy batting 10 or 11. Must be padded with a lot of NO.
That guy Sobers looks pretty good.
Imagine the IPL bidding for Sobers at his peak. That would be a good topic actually, your all time world T20 team for players at their peak. King Viv, Joel Garner etc etc
A current player but Kohli's record in the shorter formats is absolutely unbelievable. Greatest ever T20 and ODI batsmen from what I can see in terms of sheer runs scored plus averages north of 50.
kohli's 50-over stats are frankly ridiculous. Gets a century every 6 innings. Tendulkar is the only player to have more 100s than him. the difference is 3. the difference in games is 189.
Yeah he is genuinely streets ahead of the other big four in the shorter formats.
But fuck ODIs, real purists follow the five day game and he averages under 50.
Appalling record.
Fuck you bloody.
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@Old-Samurai-Jack said in NZ All Time XI:
@booboo Talking to oneself is the first sign of madness.
First?
Well down that road ...
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Boult deservedly always gets the nomination in this thread, yet somehow Southee’s name is never mentioned.
Obviously both outstanding bowlers and I can’t really separate them to be honest and their records are very very similar. -
@dogmeat said in NZ All Time XI:
That guy Sobers looks pretty good.
Buggered back and can't bowl fast? No problem - just switch to world-class left-arm spin....
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