NZ All Time XI
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@Rapido said in NZ All Time XI:
For that 4th spot on NZ's Mt Rushmore. Jack Cowie would have a claim as he was probably the best in the world in his position (seam/fast bowling) for a period of x years. A statsguru query backs it up, with only competition from Lindwall (an all time great) in the post-war years (the final third, or fag-end, of Cowie's 12 year career span).
Shane Bond, no matter how much I rate him, would never have been the best in the world even if injury or ICL free, as his peak **coincided with McGrath.
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But, probably, McCullum would have a very good claim as he rates highly (top 5 or better) on so many NZ metrics. Runs scored, wicket-keeping, captaincy etc. Even areas where he is considered a 'relative failure'; e.g. as an opening batsman - he is in NZ's top 4 or 5 for both runs scored or average etc.Yes but assuming Crowe is the third name on there we need to agree that Border, Chappell, Richards etc were better than he was. Other like Gooch, Greenidge, Haynes, Richardson, Gower etc were around his level.
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@Chris-B said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 JFR was very good against spin, but I recall was regarded as a bit suspect vs pace.
He skipped a tour to the Windies (and Edgar was dropped) which gave Rudder his baptism of fire.
That's the glaring blotch on the copybook of JFR. Not even close to an NZ all time XI and someone suggests he's on the Mount Rushmore of NZ cricketers? Good grief.
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@canefan said in NZ All Time XI:
He was a tall bugger, solid built even in his 80s. I could imagine him being a real terror in his prime
Too far away from Cricket to have any sensible view on who should be in the XI and just enjoying reading this thread, but yeah, we should def' consider older-era players like Cowie, Bert Sutciffe and JR Reid who were clearly way up with the very best of their era based on stats and contemporary opinion.
And just want to make a point that NZ cricket owes a huge debt to semi-pro players like Bevan Congdon & Bruce Taylor who made NZ competitive in the '70's and laid some seriously good foundations. You suspect they'd be outstanding in todays professional environment but sadly, I guess we'll never know how good they might have been.
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@KiwiPie said in NZ All Time XI:
Kane has moved into the top 10 for centuries per innings batted - at around 1 ton every 6 innings.
His conversion rate over the last 5 years or so has been phenomenal. Something like 13 tons and 9 fifties I think.
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@Cyclops said in NZ All Time XI:
His conversion rate over the last 5 years or so has been phenomenal. Something like 13 tons and 9 fifties I think.
If you remove his first 25 tests, he is averaging over 63 with 24 tons in 117 innings - better than 1 in 5 which is pretty spectacular.
For the last 5 years (since March 2018) he averages 61 with 10 tons in 50 innings - still 1 in 5. Possibly more failures in that period though but his average rescued by 4 double centuries. (in that same period, Root has played 64 tests to Kane's 30!)
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FB@KiwiPie said in NZ All Time XI:
@Cyclops said in NZ All Time XI:
His conversion rate over the last 5 years or so has been phenomenal. Something like 13 tons and 9 fifties I think.
If you remove his first 25 tests, he is averaging over 63 with 24 tons in 117 innings - better than 1 in 5 which is pretty spectacular.
For the last 5 years (since March 2018) he averages 61 with 10 tons in 50 innings - still 1 in 5. Possibly more failures in that period though but his average rescued by 4 double centuries. (in that same period, Root has played 64 tests to Kane's 30!)
I saw a thing on FB asking which of the big four would get the most test tons.
Unfortunately KW is always going to suffer a bit by not being from the big three nations. It’ll probably be Root and I’d argue he’s third or forth best of the lot.
All of them could easily each play for another five years at least as well. Loads of hundreds to come.
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A guy like Bond has to be in for me. With him playing we were a good chance of beating a really bloody good Aussie team who probably outmatched us in 10/11 spots. Without him we were no chance. There are no Reid type 'would he have been found out over time' suspicions or lucky wickets - he was playing the best and dominating them: people bowling 150kph inswingers and making players as good as Ricky Ponting look silly are not over-rated.
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@reprobate said in NZ All Time XI:
A guy like Bond has to be in for me. With him playing we were a good chance of beating a really bloody good Aussie team who probably outmatched us in 10/11 spots. Without him we were no chance. There are no Reid type 'would he have been found out over time' suspicions or lucky wickets - he was playing the best and dominating them: people bowling 150kph inswingers and making players as good as Ricky Ponting look silly are not over-rated.
Guys as good as Hayden, Gilly, Ponting and Martyn were made to look like chumps that day. I can’t believe we lost though !
It’s probably a good thing in one way that he essentially didn’t play when not 100% and risk losing the aura like lots of others have.
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@Donsteppa said in NZ All Time XI:
Certainly impressive but also achieved cos he preferred to play county cricket than for his country.
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@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Donsteppa said in NZ All Time XI:
Certainly impressive but also achieved cos he preferred to play county cricket than for his country.
I was only a kid but I found that idea odd. I only remember him fronting for NZ late in his career. Business decision?
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@canefan said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Donsteppa said in NZ All Time XI:
Certainly impressive but also achieved cos he preferred to play county cricket than for his country.
I was only a kid but I found that idea odd. I only remember him fronting for NZ late in his career. Business decision?
I heard he fell out with the selectors.
In saying that’s he’s well in the discussion for a spot as an opener in our all time team but if he played more he’d be a certainty.
First class records can be misleading. Lots of guys ( mainly English ) like Graeme Hick, Mark Ramprakash, Mike Gatting and Allan Lamb had formidable records in county cricket but were pretty bog standard test players. Apparently it’s not the best breeding ground in many cases.
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@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@canefan said in NZ All Time XI:
@MN5 said in NZ All Time XI:
@Donsteppa said in NZ All Time XI:
Certainly impressive but also achieved cos he preferred to play county cricket than for his country.
I was only a kid but I found that idea odd. I only remember him fronting for NZ late in his career. Business decision?
I heard he fell out with the selectors.
In saying that’s he’s well in the discussion for a spot as an opener in our all time team but if he played more he’d be a certainty.
First class records can be misleading. Lots of guys ( mainly English ) like Graeme Hick, Mark Ramprakash, Mike Gatting and Allan Lamb had formidable records in county cricket but were pretty bog standard test players. Apparently it’s not the best breeding ground in many cases.
I remember when he came back to the NZ team. His class was evident. I still remember him being the first player I'd seen stepping to leg to expose his stumps and cracking the ball over the off. Amazing
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@MN5 NZ Cricket was amateur in every sense of the word.
Turner had expectations that it would be more professional. Not just financially but attitudinally.
For many years he had combined county cricket with domestic cricket in NZ and test appearances but he was definitely a prickly bastard and had a falling out with the administrators, but really his attitude wasn't all that different to Hadlee's. Turner was ambitious and single-minded - very aware of his career stats.
His career highlights are irrefutable though. For a long time he carried NZ batting and he enjoyed success in every format he played and at all levels.
The County cricket scene in the 1970's was very different to what it morphed into by the time Hicks etc.
Overseas players dominated. Every team had a world class bowling attack. In many ways it was harder for a batsman than a lot of test cricket. It was also an unrelenting grind. Turners first class performances should not be under-rated just because the county game became much less competitive.
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His exploits in the West Indies in '71 and against Oz in' 74 alone should get him his slot. Ironically, he never repeated that Test form in England for some reason.
His Test average of near 45 is just the icing on the cake in many ways as he really did give his all and his professional experience for the team on and off the field was incalculable.
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Turner started out as a blocker - he was noted for his slow scoring and being hard to shift. But he transformed himself by the end of his career such that he hit 300 in a day aged 35.
In the 1973 series (the Congdon tour) he was the star man having hit 1,000 runs before the end of May which was a holy grail in England - he was the first since 1938 to do it and only Hick has managed it since. By the time of the test series he seemed burnt out and failed to score many runs.
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@KiwiPie I think he started out as a dasher in NZ but his technique got found out when he started with Worcester so he remodelled himself as the Kiwi Boycott. Then in his later years reverted more to his younger style
He approached that 1,000 runs target like Hadlee chasing the Double. He looked at the tour itinerary and marked out a plan to get there. Like I said driven and single minded.
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All good info on him from some of our older ferners who remember him
An average of 44 as an opener in that era is excellent, it is a real shame he didn’t play much more than he did.
Also sounds like a rather difficult fellow to get on with which didn’t help.
