Springboks V All Blacks
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@act-crusader If they're going down that path perhaps they should get Toddy Blackadder on the coaching staff?
No-one knows more about playing three first fives in a XV than Toddy - he might even have occasionally used four!
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Is BB starts at 10 then clearly Mo'unga is on the bench and I can't find room for D-Mac in my 22. And I think that's my preferred lineup TBH. I just don't trust D-Mac with any responsibility in a tight game, on either end of the park, whether at 10, 14 or 15.
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My only concern with dmac on the wing before seeing how it would go ,
Is if his lack of height could be exposed with the opposition putting in cross field kicks in one on one aerial battles .
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@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
Is BB starts at 10 then clearly Mo'unga is on the bench and I can't find room for D-Mac in my 22. And I think that's my preferred lineup TBH. I just don't trust D-Mac with any responsibility in a tight game, on either end of the park, whether at 10, 14 or 15.
Ah ha....could be because there's now 23? Shit you have been away a while!
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@bones said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
Is BB starts at 10 then clearly Mo'unga is on the bench and I can't find room for D-Mac in my 22. And I think that's my preferred lineup TBH. I just don't trust D-Mac with any responsibility in a tight game, on either end of the park, whether at 10, 14 or 15.
Ah ha....could be because there's now 23? Shit you have been away a while!
Bwaha, old habits! I'm also still using S-14 and the Tri Nations BTW!
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@kiwiinmelb said in Springboks V All Blacks:
My only concern with dmac on the wing before seeing how it would go ,
Is if his lack of height could be exposed with the opposition putting in cross field kicks in one on one aerial battles .
I think people make too much of the height thing - the guy can definitely get off the ground and is pretty accurate. It's not often you see a blazing break just because one guy was taller than the other, from a cross field kick. Maybe relevant if he's marking Folau, but even then, what happens? Cross field kicks are useful when the man on the outside is unmarked, not when they're having to compete for the ball.
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@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@bones said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
Is BB starts at 10 then clearly Mo'unga is on the bench and I can't find room for D-Mac in my 22. And I think that's my preferred lineup TBH. I just don't trust D-Mac with any responsibility in a tight game, on either end of the park, whether at 10, 14 or 15.
Ah ha....could be because there's now 23? Shit you have been away a while!
Bwaha, old habits! I'm also still using S-14 and the Tri Nations BTW!
That's ok, we could discuss the NPC together.
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Been following the discussion on BB.
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Dmac won't start on the wing, hes behind Ioana (clearly), BFA & Naholo, not to mention Jordie Barrett seems to be favoured as a 15 before Dmac this year.
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I'd like to see more discussion about whether the issues lay more with Aaron Smith than Beaudy.
I feel that when DC played, it was clear who was the on-field general tactics wise. Richie's team management is next level compared to Kieran Read.
I think when we talk about AB leadership and driving the team, maybe we have too many chiefs at the moment. Aaron Smith did some dumb shit in that last test - I reckon if he got back to giving Beaudy the ball quicker and letting the 10 drive things we'd be better off. -
If Mo'unga starts 10, BB at 15, BFA at 14, and Ioane 11. Who shifts at the 60min mark to accomodate Dmac coming on? because I don't see where one of those starters makes way...
For me (if the RWC final was tomorrow and no-one was injured, its
10. BB
11. Ioane
14. Naholo
15. BFA
with Mo'unga on the bench.as for preferential halfback and midfield, leave it for another day....
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@bones said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@kiwiinmelb said in Springboks V All Blacks:
My only concern with dmac on the wing before seeing how it would go ,
Is if his lack of height could be exposed with the opposition putting in cross field kicks in one on one aerial battles .
I think people make too much of the height thing - the guy can definitely get off the ground and is pretty accurate. It's not often you see a blazing break just because one guy was taller than the other, from a cross field kick. Maybe relevant if he's marking Folau, but even then, what happens? Cross field kicks are useful when the man on the outside is unmarked, not when they're having to compete for the ball.
You are probably right , and they have no hesitation in playing nms there when his attacking game is on ,
dmac is certainly better in the air than him
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@voodoo As above, I reckon Beauden is locked in as the starting 10.
DMac vs Richie on the bench is more likely the call Hansen is considering.
I don't think that one is clear-cut - before last weekend, I think most people would have said the job was DMac's. Remember, he had a pretty good test starting at 10 vs. France and there were comments on here along the lines that he could clearly do things at 10 that Mo'unga couldn't.
And then a few weeks later, Beaudy scored four (actually five) tries vs Australia and the Beaudy vs Richie conversation was smothered by an industrial size feather pillow!
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@kiwiinmelb said in Springboks V All Blacks:
My only concern with dmac on the wing before seeing how it would go ,
Is if his lack of height could be exposed with the opposition putting in cross field kicks in one on one aerial battles .
Have him mark Folau..?
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@chris-b said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I don't think that one is clear-cut - before last weekend, I think most people would have said the job was DMac's. Remember, he had a pretty good test starting at 10 vs. France and there were comments on here along the lines that he could clearly do things at 10 that Mo'unga couldn't.
Some common sense. I reckon before DMac went home he would have been on the bench in Arg, as he has been most of the year, and probably in Pretoria too. It's good to have options but we might have to wait until the Eng and Irish tests to see how the coaches intend to maximise the talent available.
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@chris-b said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@chester-draws I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about a starting backline unit that includes all four "rookies".
Ioane will obviously start. I suspect Goodhue might get paired with one of SBW or Crotty. ALB will probably be on the bench.
Switching out the two time World Player of the Year for a guy with currently one test start (which was far from flawless)?
I don't see it. That would be a bigger call than ditching McCaw for Sam Cane!
Remember Shag fielded Carter, Nonu, Conrad Smith - guys all at the end of their test careers and with 300+ caps between them - and he was happy to run NMS alongside them.
And aside from these guys he had McCaw. He wanted to have Woodcock. He wheeled Kevvy Mealamu out of a rest home....
And at the end of the day, Danny Boy especially, showed why those years of experience were so valuable.
yea fuck that must have been a really tough selection meeting you're right
Well guys, who do we go? I guess at 10 we may as well slot in the greatest 10 of all time. at 12? Well, there is a guy in the squad who is arguably the greatest of the pro-era, certainly for the last 4 years. At 13? Well there's that skinny white guy who is as good as anyone we have ever had. And oh look! they are all bang in form and injury free. Okay, then i guess we slot them in aye?
What about up front? Well, at 7, i guess we pick the skipper. He's only the greatest rugby player of all time. Could do a job. Loosehead? 100 tests and a try in the World Cup final? oh, he's injured. shit. Anyone better at the bench hooker spot than Kev yet? no? okay well i guess a fuck-ton of tests helps push him over the line. And oh look, he's playing that role beautifully as well.
Seriously, that 23 in 2015 was fucking ridiculous. Picked itself, and probably coached itself. And our GOAT veterans all turned up form-wise.
This i see as a different situation. The guys in the pole position aren't doing a job, but more importantly when compared to 2015, don't have the body of work behind them to show that all will be well when the moment comes. Obviously the coaches know waaay more than me, and to be honest have earned the benefit of the doubt, but this looks a bit like experience for experience sake being the wrong choice in this instance.
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@westcoastie said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I'd like to see more discussion about whether the issues lay more with Aaron Smith than Beaudy.
I feel that when DC played, it was clear who was the on-field general tactics wise. Richie's team management is next level compared to Kieran Read.
I think when we talk about AB leadership and driving the team, maybe we have too many chiefs at the moment. Aaron Smith did some dumb shit in that last test - I reckon if he got back to giving Beaudy the ball quicker and letting the 10 drive things we'd be better off.There is a certain amount of truth to this, A Smith was poor in the first 50 minutes of Saturday. He wasn't helped by some of the worst ball presentation i have seen from an AB side in recent years. But that doesn't excuse some of the decision making, and the inaccuracy of the kicking.
But writing BB's issues off to the halfback is some serious whitewashing. A Smith wasn't at fault for the awful, awful kicking game; the stand and shovel passing game; or the distinct lack of run.
For a number of years, the forwards have been run by the 9, who then guns it to the 10 when he wants it.
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@mariner4life Tony Woodcock didn't. He looked like he was on his last legs at that tournament, but they'd stuck with him through thick and thin rather than bringing in a rookie Joe Moody.
They'd previously persisted on and on and on with Mealamu and Hore, pretty much beyond the bounds of common sense IMO. Eventually Coles came along, but Codie Taylor went to the RWC with 60 minutes of test rugby under his belt - basically because there was no alternative to Mealamu been developed.
Unfortunately Cruden got injured, so we never got to see the call that would have been made, but Danny Boy showed he was the man for the job.
There was a guy from the Waikato who was adamant all year that Cane should replace McCaw.
But, I'm not arguing so much about individuals as about Hansen's track record. Sure, he'll pick new people, but when in doubt, he goes with experience.
I think he learned a lesson in 2007, when he ended up with Leonard, McAlister and Toeava calling the shots!
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@chris-b said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@voodoo As above, I reckon Beauden is locked in as the starting 10.
DMac vs Richie on the bench is more likely the call Hansen is considering.
I don't think that one is clear-cut - before last weekend, I think most people would have said the job was DMac's. Remember, he had a pretty good test starting at 10 vs. France and there were comments on here along the lines that he could clearly do things at 10 that Mo'unga couldn't.
And then a few weeks later, Beaudy scored four (actually five) tries vs Australia and the Beaudy vs Richie conversation was smothered by an industrial size feather pillow!
As a long standing member of the Fern I reserve the right to contradict the hell out of myself on a weekly basis.
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@chris-b my point was pretty tongue-in-cheek, because there were times in 2014-15 when a few of those guys looked cooked. And Woody absolutely had to go.
But the core premise to my pisstake remains. Experience only gets you so far when the calibre of those experienced players is less than the guys coming through.
And it would be a mistake to base your thinking on one game 12 years ago that was the result of a perfect storm of things going wrong.
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@sammyc said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@akan004 said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@mariner4life said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I think a telling indicator from the MoTM thread is Sam Whitelock has zero votes. In the absence of BBBR we have really needed him to stand up, but he has not risen to the occasion. Sam is a very very good lock, but jesus he's had a workload this year, the bloke looks like he needs a couple of months off.
Razor needs to start managing Sam's workload a bit better during Super Rugby. He plays him in virtually every game and usually for the entire 80 minutes, even when it's against weaker teams like the Sunwolves.
A quick google search tells me that Sam Whitelock was rested against the Sunwolves this year (not even on the bench).
Sometimes it's not always wise to trust the internet though.
After All, I'm skeptical there's hot teens in my neighbourhood who are dying to meet me.
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@mariner4life It's an interesting balancing act.
One thing is for certain - if we don't win RWC2019, Hansen will be a fucking moron who got the picks wrong!
But, I think he's repeatedly had it proven to him that backing his experienced players is mainly the way to go - until they fall off a cliff. Look how much rope Julian Savea got given.
Also have to take into consideration that a few weeks ago the conversation here was that Ben Smith was cooked. And a few weeks later, he's not.
I think Hansen will go for a bit of a blend of youth and experience - Goodhue and Lienert-Brown are definitely pushing the old midfielders quite hard. But those old guys only need to make a couple of big plays and they'll be back in the "how did we ever doubt them" camp.
I don't think Mo'unga is close to unseating Beaudy. I need to have another look at that line kick he made in the final couple of minutes to see whether it was balls of steel or a lucky bounce. Certainly, if it had been an unlucky bounce, I doubt we'd be having this conversation. I think there's a replay later this evening.
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@chris-b said in Springboks V All Blacks:
balls of steel or a lucky bounce
it was absolutely both. A leg break Warnie would be proud of.
If we are going to stick with these guys, then we need to find a way of using them that brings out more of their strengths, because it seems like we are underusing their talents at the moment.
Personally i blame Foster more than Hansen
