Springboks V All Blacks
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@crucial said in Springboks V All Blacks:
Funny how it has taken this long for everyone to realise that BB is not the type of 10 we require for a tight game that needs control and measured tactics.
It has been being pointed out for years that he is not a game managing 10.I think the "defenders" mainly pointed out that he was still the best 10 in the country. Sops form fell off a cliff and he buggered off, DMac has no game management, and Mo'unga has only come of age as a consistent player at the top level this year. Otherwise the cupboard has been bare, and it's not like Beauden has struggled - when on form he's turned tight tests into blowouts.
Now we have a more traditional 10 in Mo'unga it will be interesting to see where Beauden fits in. Most (all?) on here agree he's not a perfect fit for 10 but he must be on the field as he's an absolute freak of a rugby player. I said earlier in the thread my preference is for Mo'unga to start at 10, Beauden 15 and DMac off the bench - I think that maximises all three players talents.
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@kirwan said in Springboks V All Blacks:
Other option is DMac on the wing instead of Naholo
Yes I would go for that. I prefer having a second fullback in the back three and Jordie's form has dipped.
He would still be involved in back field runs, picking out slower defenders, and he can drift into first receiver often. You would get most of the benefits of McKenzie without him having a huge amount of responsibility.
I wouldn't have him covering 10 from the wing, I would still have Mo'unga on the bench
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@chester-draws I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about a starting backline unit that includes all four "rookies".
Ioane will obviously start. I suspect Goodhue might get paired with one of SBW or Crotty. ALB will probably be on the bench.
Switching out the two time World Player of the Year for a guy with currently one test start (which was far from flawless)?
I don't see it. That would be a bigger call than ditching McCaw for Sam Cane!
Remember Shag fielded Carter, Nonu, Conrad Smith - guys all at the end of their test careers and with 300+ caps between them - and he was happy to run NMS alongside them.
And aside from these guys he had McCaw. He wanted to have Woodcock. He wheeled Kevvy Mealamu out of a rest home....
And at the end of the day, Danny Boy especially, showed why those years of experience were so valuable.
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@duluth Not out of the question. I do recall a test that Hansen went with Carter, Cruden and B. Barrett all in the team.
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@act-crusader If they're going down that path perhaps they should get Toddy Blackadder on the coaching staff?
No-one knows more about playing three first fives in a XV than Toddy - he might even have occasionally used four!
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Is BB starts at 10 then clearly Mo'unga is on the bench and I can't find room for D-Mac in my 22. And I think that's my preferred lineup TBH. I just don't trust D-Mac with any responsibility in a tight game, on either end of the park, whether at 10, 14 or 15.
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My only concern with dmac on the wing before seeing how it would go ,
Is if his lack of height could be exposed with the opposition putting in cross field kicks in one on one aerial battles .
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@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
Is BB starts at 10 then clearly Mo'unga is on the bench and I can't find room for D-Mac in my 22. And I think that's my preferred lineup TBH. I just don't trust D-Mac with any responsibility in a tight game, on either end of the park, whether at 10, 14 or 15.
Ah ha....could be because there's now 23? Shit you have been away a while!
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@bones said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
Is BB starts at 10 then clearly Mo'unga is on the bench and I can't find room for D-Mac in my 22. And I think that's my preferred lineup TBH. I just don't trust D-Mac with any responsibility in a tight game, on either end of the park, whether at 10, 14 or 15.
Ah ha....could be because there's now 23? Shit you have been away a while!
Bwaha, old habits! I'm also still using S-14 and the Tri Nations BTW!
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@kiwiinmelb said in Springboks V All Blacks:
My only concern with dmac on the wing before seeing how it would go ,
Is if his lack of height could be exposed with the opposition putting in cross field kicks in one on one aerial battles .
I think people make too much of the height thing - the guy can definitely get off the ground and is pretty accurate. It's not often you see a blazing break just because one guy was taller than the other, from a cross field kick. Maybe relevant if he's marking Folau, but even then, what happens? Cross field kicks are useful when the man on the outside is unmarked, not when they're having to compete for the ball.
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@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@bones said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@voodoo said in Springboks V All Blacks:
Is BB starts at 10 then clearly Mo'unga is on the bench and I can't find room for D-Mac in my 22. And I think that's my preferred lineup TBH. I just don't trust D-Mac with any responsibility in a tight game, on either end of the park, whether at 10, 14 or 15.
Ah ha....could be because there's now 23? Shit you have been away a while!
Bwaha, old habits! I'm also still using S-14 and the Tri Nations BTW!
That's ok, we could discuss the NPC together.
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Been following the discussion on BB.
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Dmac won't start on the wing, hes behind Ioana (clearly), BFA & Naholo, not to mention Jordie Barrett seems to be favoured as a 15 before Dmac this year.
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I'd like to see more discussion about whether the issues lay more with Aaron Smith than Beaudy.
I feel that when DC played, it was clear who was the on-field general tactics wise. Richie's team management is next level compared to Kieran Read.
I think when we talk about AB leadership and driving the team, maybe we have too many chiefs at the moment. Aaron Smith did some dumb shit in that last test - I reckon if he got back to giving Beaudy the ball quicker and letting the 10 drive things we'd be better off. -
If Mo'unga starts 10, BB at 15, BFA at 14, and Ioane 11. Who shifts at the 60min mark to accomodate Dmac coming on? because I don't see where one of those starters makes way...
For me (if the RWC final was tomorrow and no-one was injured, its
10. BB
11. Ioane
14. Naholo
15. BFA
with Mo'unga on the bench.as for preferential halfback and midfield, leave it for another day....
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@bones said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@kiwiinmelb said in Springboks V All Blacks:
My only concern with dmac on the wing before seeing how it would go ,
Is if his lack of height could be exposed with the opposition putting in cross field kicks in one on one aerial battles .
I think people make too much of the height thing - the guy can definitely get off the ground and is pretty accurate. It's not often you see a blazing break just because one guy was taller than the other, from a cross field kick. Maybe relevant if he's marking Folau, but even then, what happens? Cross field kicks are useful when the man on the outside is unmarked, not when they're having to compete for the ball.
You are probably right , and they have no hesitation in playing nms there when his attacking game is on ,
dmac is certainly better in the air than him
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@voodoo As above, I reckon Beauden is locked in as the starting 10.
DMac vs Richie on the bench is more likely the call Hansen is considering.
I don't think that one is clear-cut - before last weekend, I think most people would have said the job was DMac's. Remember, he had a pretty good test starting at 10 vs. France and there were comments on here along the lines that he could clearly do things at 10 that Mo'unga couldn't.
And then a few weeks later, Beaudy scored four (actually five) tries vs Australia and the Beaudy vs Richie conversation was smothered by an industrial size feather pillow!
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@kiwiinmelb said in Springboks V All Blacks:
My only concern with dmac on the wing before seeing how it would go ,
Is if his lack of height could be exposed with the opposition putting in cross field kicks in one on one aerial battles .
Have him mark Folau..?
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@chris-b said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I don't think that one is clear-cut - before last weekend, I think most people would have said the job was DMac's. Remember, he had a pretty good test starting at 10 vs. France and there were comments on here along the lines that he could clearly do things at 10 that Mo'unga couldn't.
Some common sense. I reckon before DMac went home he would have been on the bench in Arg, as he has been most of the year, and probably in Pretoria too. It's good to have options but we might have to wait until the Eng and Irish tests to see how the coaches intend to maximise the talent available.
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@chris-b said in Springboks V All Blacks:
@chester-draws I'm not talking about individuals. I'm talking about a starting backline unit that includes all four "rookies".
Ioane will obviously start. I suspect Goodhue might get paired with one of SBW or Crotty. ALB will probably be on the bench.
Switching out the two time World Player of the Year for a guy with currently one test start (which was far from flawless)?
I don't see it. That would be a bigger call than ditching McCaw for Sam Cane!
Remember Shag fielded Carter, Nonu, Conrad Smith - guys all at the end of their test careers and with 300+ caps between them - and he was happy to run NMS alongside them.
And aside from these guys he had McCaw. He wanted to have Woodcock. He wheeled Kevvy Mealamu out of a rest home....
And at the end of the day, Danny Boy especially, showed why those years of experience were so valuable.
yea fuck that must have been a really tough selection meeting you're right
Well guys, who do we go? I guess at 10 we may as well slot in the greatest 10 of all time. at 12? Well, there is a guy in the squad who is arguably the greatest of the pro-era, certainly for the last 4 years. At 13? Well there's that skinny white guy who is as good as anyone we have ever had. And oh look! they are all bang in form and injury free. Okay, then i guess we slot them in aye?
What about up front? Well, at 7, i guess we pick the skipper. He's only the greatest rugby player of all time. Could do a job. Loosehead? 100 tests and a try in the World Cup final? oh, he's injured. shit. Anyone better at the bench hooker spot than Kev yet? no? okay well i guess a fuck-ton of tests helps push him over the line. And oh look, he's playing that role beautifully as well.
Seriously, that 23 in 2015 was fucking ridiculous. Picked itself, and probably coached itself. And our GOAT veterans all turned up form-wise.
This i see as a different situation. The guys in the pole position aren't doing a job, but more importantly when compared to 2015, don't have the body of work behind them to show that all will be well when the moment comes. Obviously the coaches know waaay more than me, and to be honest have earned the benefit of the doubt, but this looks a bit like experience for experience sake being the wrong choice in this instance.
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@westcoastie said in Springboks V All Blacks:
I'd like to see more discussion about whether the issues lay more with Aaron Smith than Beaudy.
I feel that when DC played, it was clear who was the on-field general tactics wise. Richie's team management is next level compared to Kieran Read.
I think when we talk about AB leadership and driving the team, maybe we have too many chiefs at the moment. Aaron Smith did some dumb shit in that last test - I reckon if he got back to giving Beaudy the ball quicker and letting the 10 drive things we'd be better off.There is a certain amount of truth to this, A Smith was poor in the first 50 minutes of Saturday. He wasn't helped by some of the worst ball presentation i have seen from an AB side in recent years. But that doesn't excuse some of the decision making, and the inaccuracy of the kicking.
But writing BB's issues off to the halfback is some serious whitewashing. A Smith wasn't at fault for the awful, awful kicking game; the stand and shovel passing game; or the distinct lack of run.
For a number of years, the forwards have been run by the 9, who then guns it to the 10 when he wants it.
