All Blacks v France Test #2
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@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life forwards should never have to buy beers for the backs!
ordinarily, i would completely agree. But on the weekend?
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
I think it is worth remembering that we often see a drop off in intensity and standards when for example there is an early blow out in the score or we are playing a team that has no chance of beating us like a rwc pool game. I think the red card had the same effect here. As much as we want them to be on 100% of the time it doesn't happen like that.
The lack of recent rugby for a few key guys, BB being taken out of the game by a reckless act* and then emptying the bench early are probably bigger causes of the shit performance than senior players being past it.
I do however think these sorts of games can help highlight guys who aren't up to it in the first place because they can't even use the motivation of trying to cement a spot to maintain their standards.*lets start focusing on that rather than having sympathy for the Frenchy.
yea that's mealy mouthed bullshit. The bench was emptied because the starting forwards were shit. And then the bench forwards were shit. That wasn't 100%, that wasn't even 90%. The French had a crack up front, and we completely failed to go with them.
How is it bullshit? There are hundreds of examples where an early blow out or game against aminnow has lead to a drop in intensity and shit performance. We rarely see to big 70-80 point blow outs that you might expect when you score 3 tries within 10 mins. Look at the last world cup where a few scratchy performances had everyone in a panic. Come finals time with something actually on the line they played bloody well.
So what are you saying? Our team is shit and all past it? What about last week?
Well, it wasn't a blow out, in fact it took a loooong time for us to properly put it to bed. Who is talking about 70-80 points? I am talking about hitting a ruck or two to keep the ball, and possibly not letting the French pack roll through us at will.
The French performance up front was night and day between the two weeks.
Past it? Did you read my post? I am talking about the new guys. They are not past it, they are not up to standard. But they are what we have got.
I think it is you who isn't ready posts. Im saying the red card had a similar affect on intensity and performance that you see with an early blow out or playing a minnow. Players think the result is a forgone conclusion and play like shit.
I also said i think there are new guys that aren't up to it. Where is the "mealy mouthed bullshit" as you put it?I'm not willing to so easy write a terrible performance from what is supposed to be the world's best team because they "mentally clocked off" at the 12 minute mark, when we didn't even have a point on the board.
Especially when the opposition then stuck it to us up front for the next 68 minutes, and we did precisely zero to combat it.
The pack should have been buying the backs beers all night for bailing them out.
So what caused it? Why were the senior guys also shit if it wasn't what i originally pointed out? ie. Lack of match fitness, losing BB, emptying the bench and the card?
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@mariner4life maybe the backs could still buy them, and the forwards carry them back to the tables?
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@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pukunui said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
I think it is worth remembering that we often see a drop off in intensity and standards when for example there is an early blow out in the score or we are playing a team that has no chance of beating us like a rwc pool game. I think the red card had the same effect here. As much as we want them to be on 100% of the time it doesn't happen like that.
The lack of recent rugby for a few key guys, BB being taken out of the game by a reckless act* and then emptying the bench early are probably bigger causes of the shit performance than senior players being past it.
I do however think these sorts of games can help highlight guys who aren't up to it in the first place because they can't even use the motivation of trying to cement a spot to maintain their standards.*lets start focusing on that rather than having sympathy for the Frenchy.
yea that's mealy mouthed bullshit. The bench was emptied because the starting forwards were shit. And then the bench forwards were shit. That wasn't 100%, that wasn't even 90%. The French had a crack up front, and we completely failed to go with them.
How is it bullshit? There are hundreds of examples where an early blow out or game against aminnow has lead to a drop in intensity and shit performance. We rarely see to big 70-80 point blow outs that you might expect when you score 3 tries within 10 mins. Look at the last world cup where a few scratchy performances had everyone in a panic. Come finals time with something actually on the line they played bloody well.
So what are you saying? Our team is shit and all past it? What about last week?
Well, it wasn't a blow out, in fact it took a loooong time for us to properly put it to bed. Who is talking about 70-80 points? I am talking about hitting a ruck or two to keep the ball, and possibly not letting the French pack roll through us at will.
The French performance up front was night and day between the two weeks.
Past it? Did you read my post? I am talking about the new guys. They are not past it, they are not up to standard. But they are what we have got.
I think it is you who isn't ready posts. Im saying the red card had a similar affect on intensity and performance that you see with an early blow out or playing a minnow. Players think the result is a forgone conclusion and play like shit.
I also said i think there are new guys that aren't up to it. Where is the "mealy mouthed bullshit" as you put it?I'm not willing to so easy write a terrible performance from what is supposed to be the world's best team because they "mentally clocked off" at the 12 minute mark, when we didn't even have a point on the board.
Especially when the opposition then stuck it to us up front for the next 68 minutes, and we did precisely zero to combat it.
The pack should have been buying the backs beers all night for bailing them out.
So what caused it? Why were the senior guys also shit if it wasn't what i originally pointed out? ie. Lack of match fitness, losing BB, emptying the bench and the card?
A lack of grunt from 2 guys who played the whole game, and 2 guys who came off the bench. 1 stalwart being very slow around the track, and one who hasn't had enough rugby. Fuck knows what Sam Cane and Sam Whitelock's issue was, two proven performers with good form in 2018 well below their usual standard (did you see the sequence in the first half where S Whitelock was making a menace of himself at a ruck, and the French guy was laughing at him?). C Taylor was good, although not helping at the ruck when he's stuck out wide.
To be honest, i am more worried by your excuses than mine. A lack of talent and ability i can live with. That's what we've got, then lets use it the best way we can.
But to be so mentally weak that they can clock off before the job is even started, let alone done, and then never switch back on, including the guys who are supposed to come on and lift the side? That's a significant worry throughout the side, and speaks to a chasm of missing leadership. -
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life maybe the backs could still buy them, and the forwards carry them back to the tables?
if it's Luke Whitelock doing the carrying, then they are going to take an age to get back from the bar
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@nepia said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@pakman Moody is worrying. What has happened to his form? In general play he's nearly as bad as Franks.
TBH, it's worrying how bad Franks has got in general play, he's never been great but now he's terrible, he's just there for scrummaging now.
It will be interesting to see how much our pack transforms when BBBR is back though.
Have to remember that Moody and Franks (and Squire) have hardly played at all this year. Between the three of them they've probably had about five hours of Super rugby in total. Similarly, Sam Cane was out for nearly a month before the tests. Not surprising that they're undercooked.
On the other hand, Taylor, the Whitelocks and Barrett have carried pretty heavy loads - Foster was saying the boys were more tired coming into camp than he'd ever seen them.
Not really surprising that they would have gone into this match expecting they were going to win and had that reinforced very early on with the sending off. Heads not quite in the space to deliver a lethal performance and you end up with a shit performance.
On the loose forwards - Sam Cane had a four year AB apprenticeship under McCaw, before he got the top job. Squire, Fifita, Whitelock etc haven't had that luxury, so it's not really surprising that they're not immediately the reincarnations of Kaino and Read.
The guys being groomed for the takeover were probably people like Vito and Luatua, but they've fucked off to take the cash - so blame them for being greedy fuckers or Hansen for failing to manage them properly - or maybe both!
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@mariner4life least it won't be Brad Shields!
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@chris-b said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
The guys being groomed for the takeover were probably people like Vito and Luatua, but they've fucked off to take the cash - so blame them for being greedy fuckers or Hansen for failing to manage them properly - or maybe both!
Not sure Vito has a grudge there, he got given a heap of goes, but Jerome and Read rarely got injured then.
Not sure Luatua was groomed for anything given his selection history. Steve Hanson hates loose forwards from the Blues. Hates 'em
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@nepia It won't have helped Owen.
Moody's first Super game for the season was against the Waratahs - he doubtless didn't play 80 minutes. Then he got banned for a fortnight. Came back in the final round before the tests vs the Chiefs.
Squire is pretty similar - he broke his thumb in the Highlanders third match of the season, sat out a couple of months and came back in the final round before the tests.
I think Owen got in four matches - though he was playing short minutes in most or all of them - before his two week ban.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life maybe the backs could still buy them, and the forwards carry them back to the tables?
if it's Luke Whitelock doing the carrying, then they are going to take an age to get back from the bar
Better than Shields, he'd drop them all.
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@antipodean see post about 5 above yours
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@marty said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@chris-b And Hansen is now saying they got it wrong putting an unchanged 23 into this match. Says they underestimated recovery time needed for those guys (like Franks, Cane, Moody, Squire) who had had very little rugby.
That's worrying isn't it? Surely they've got data on all this? So you had this average heart rate with these periods in this range after only doing this amount of real conditioning in the lead up. You'll be good for the bench next week.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@marty said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@chris-b And Hansen is now saying they got it wrong putting an unchanged 23 into this match. Says they underestimated recovery time needed for those guys (like Franks, Cane, Moody, Squire) who had had very little rugby.
That's worrying isn't it? Surely they've got data on all this? So you had this average heart rate with these periods in this range after only doing this amount of real conditioning in the lead up. You'll be good for the bench next week.
probably talking shit, but maybe all teh data and sports science doesn't mean shit when you don't have the cattle?
"Sam Cane's numbers are a bit fucked, he should probably not play this week"
"well, it's either he plays, or we start A Savea"
"okay, maybe he can run it off" -
Interesting discussion.
Right now, we are struggling to replace absolutely world class players, and the players we have bedded in over the last two-three years haven't stepped up as required. IMO, it’s that simple, and there is no quick fix. Our 2015 team was, almost man for man, better than our current team, and will likely be better than what we can put out next year.
On the plus side, I’m not sure many teams have really improved since 2015, the Irish, the Wobs look likely right now, and Saffas are potentially very dangerous.
With no injuries, we are right there though, but without some key players, it’s an average AB team. Some bad luck but also bad management has lead us here. Bad luck would be the locks and props and hooker where injuries have taken away players ready (eg, Hames, Nepo, Moli) or getting there (eg, Aumua). Plus some injuries during the lead up (Moody, Cane, Franks, Squire) has meant we have a number of players under cooked right now, which makes us look worse. So, with most of those players back and with a bit of rugby, we could be laughing next year with a much bigger group of players ready to step up.
Bad management includes a bit of a lack of planning and investment for the future, including mainly Luatua, but also losing Vito too, while holding on to Kaino for the Lions, meaning that we are one year out from the WC with a back row light on experience - after keeping some players on contract who shouldn't have been. IMO, not trying to keep Charlie for two more years was also a shame (understandable given his age and the choice between him or Franks, but Charlie was playing really well). They had spent big on Savea in 2015, and I suspect they are paying too much for SBW, when they should really know that we can produce 11-15 all over the ship, but 1 through 10 is much harder, and 1 through 8 lay the platform for us to win test matches.
With Nepo back, I think we are looking OK at TH, as although Franks is looking like he should be put out to pasture, with the three of them (including Tuungofasi) we are alright for the WC and then just need some new blood post that (e.g., Moli). I think Ofa has been excellent, and has done a fantastic job stepping in to Charlie's role, so it's only really hindsight and Franks' current form that makes me miss Charlie, I guess. With Nepo fit, I doubt I'll be concerned.
LH is suddenly a bit of a problem. Moody is shit right now, and hopefully that’s just due to a lack of rugby. Karl looks better than Hames, which is incredibly lucky, but both of them look a bit unfit (Karl was really struggling in the last 10 last week). After that, it’s looking a bit weak.
Hooker is fine if Coles comes back with any form. We’d then have him and Taylor for now, both world class, with Aumua for the future, and adequate squaddies around when needed. The problem is that Harris and the chubby toddler are there due to two injuries. It’s worth remembering that, as we could be much much stronger overnight if Coles regains fitness. Of course, if he doesn't, Taylor's value, well, Mastercard and all that. My third biggest concern.
Locks are a problem, because there are just less physically able bodies about. For that reason, a bit more effort into developing Bird would probably have been a good idea, because he came right at Super level for the Chiefs then left. But, some of that is on the players not working out (I’m looking at you Tuips), so hard to put that on the coaches. I suspect that if Tuips has gone to the Landers or Saders, he’d be a better player and ready to be the bench player and potential starter that he should be. Can’t really lay that at Shag’s door. If he has become the player he was developed to be, our bench would be pretty fearsome and he could do the starter role too.
So, simply put, we just have a huge lack of class behind two absolute greats. Romano has filled in well, but has never been the future, and Tuips hasn’t worked out - yet. He is still young though, so still could get there with some greater consistency. Players with the workrate seem to be too small (Barrett, Hemopo, although we’ll find out). This is actually my biggest area of concern for us because we have put lots into Scott Barrett and I'm still not convinced he's even better than Romano. Those watching the young dudes might provide us with some hope here, but right now we are so dependent on SW and BBBR, I’d have lock identification and development as an absolute priority. For that reason, selecting Fifita looks a real bad idea, and one that is a bit unfathomable for me. Surely, there are others they could be looking at, such as Louisi?
Regarding the loosies, with Read missing, it’s the huge gap in class that many predicted would appear once we lost the obvious back up (Luatua). Akira appears to be the answer to many of us, but he’s not ready, doesn’t have the workrate, or is a dick. I’m worried that he’ll get the same Luatua treatment, in which case he’ll leave right about the same time as he becomes world class, and there seems to be a bit of a pattern with some of the Auckland boys (Luatua, Tuips, Akira) being harder to get integrated. Is that because they are fat and unfit? Uncoached? Uncoachable? I think some of this can be laid at the Blues not really developing players. Ofa has come on as an All Black, so I'm happy that Akira keeps getting tot he camps, even if he isn't named. A t least, he should know what he needs to do.
Anyway, putting Akira aside, this is clearly the major problem right now because I'm not convinced that Read will come back any good. Whitelock is good without being good enough to be a dominant AB 8 to take us through to a WC wine - my god I wish Luatua were out there. Whitelock makes some dominant tackles and does plenty of leg work, which makes him Sam Cane II (who I think will be ok once he actually gets fit), but he does much less around the field as a creator in comparison to Read (or Luatua), making us very reliant on Moody, Taylor, Squire and BBBR to get us metres and offloads.
At my most optimistic, Squire looks like Kaino in 2004/2005, Messam in 2008/2009 and Vito in 2010/2011, in that he appears to have the tools, but can't consistently do it for 80, or even 60. But, who else is there? @tim would say Akira at 6, but I think he's a natural 8. Fifita is an athlete who doesn't seem to do the hard yards (also, Kaino 2004 reminiscent), and was missing as a ball runner too, while Taufua is small (and injured, and better at 8). If we can solve that problem, we are much more set, but we are really just hoping that Read comes back and that Squire works out, or, that they've literally picked the next Kaino from nowhere and @nepia is wrong about the new boy.
Backup 7 is fine, with Todd the next starter always on stand by. Ardie made more tackles than anyone else last week (Source: ESPN stats) but still doesn’t seem to have a clear role. I’m not as down on him as others, especially off the bench, but I feel like Taufua could do the same role better.
Anyway, I'm tired now, but I think we are fine in the backs - Dagg, Ben Lam, Thompson, Taimanivalu, Alaimalo can't even get into the team (some of them are miles away), and although I'd like us to have another WC ten coming through, I'm much happier about 10 with Barrett looking OK, Mo'unga looking ready, and Dmac looking OK in the bench role. The halfbacks both played like shit last week, but we have heaps of depth, so no dramas there, and more quality midfielders than we have places for.
If we can solve our dissolving depth and lack of experience up front, we're fine. If not, we're buggered.
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@mariner4life I'm guessing that's bang on. Hansen may have a promising career as a PR when he pulls the plug.
