All Blacks v France Test #2
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@mariner4life least it won't be Brad Shields!
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@chris-b said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
The guys being groomed for the takeover were probably people like Vito and Luatua, but they've fucked off to take the cash - so blame them for being greedy fuckers or Hansen for failing to manage them properly - or maybe both!
Not sure Vito has a grudge there, he got given a heap of goes, but Jerome and Read rarely got injured then.
Not sure Luatua was groomed for anything given his selection history. Steve Hanson hates loose forwards from the Blues. Hates 'em
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@nepia It won't have helped Owen.
Moody's first Super game for the season was against the Waratahs - he doubtless didn't play 80 minutes. Then he got banned for a fortnight. Came back in the final round before the tests vs the Chiefs.
Squire is pretty similar - he broke his thumb in the Highlanders third match of the season, sat out a couple of months and came back in the final round before the tests.
I think Owen got in four matches - though he was playing short minutes in most or all of them - before his two week ban.
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@mariner4life said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@taniwharugby said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@mariner4life maybe the backs could still buy them, and the forwards carry them back to the tables?
if it's Luke Whitelock doing the carrying, then they are going to take an age to get back from the bar
Better than Shields, he'd drop them all.
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@antipodean see post about 5 above yours
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@marty said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@chris-b And Hansen is now saying they got it wrong putting an unchanged 23 into this match. Says they underestimated recovery time needed for those guys (like Franks, Cane, Moody, Squire) who had had very little rugby.
That's worrying isn't it? Surely they've got data on all this? So you had this average heart rate with these periods in this range after only doing this amount of real conditioning in the lead up. You'll be good for the bench next week.
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@antipodean said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@marty said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
@chris-b And Hansen is now saying they got it wrong putting an unchanged 23 into this match. Says they underestimated recovery time needed for those guys (like Franks, Cane, Moody, Squire) who had had very little rugby.
That's worrying isn't it? Surely they've got data on all this? So you had this average heart rate with these periods in this range after only doing this amount of real conditioning in the lead up. You'll be good for the bench next week.
probably talking shit, but maybe all teh data and sports science doesn't mean shit when you don't have the cattle?
"Sam Cane's numbers are a bit fucked, he should probably not play this week"
"well, it's either he plays, or we start A Savea"
"okay, maybe he can run it off" -
Interesting discussion.
Right now, we are struggling to replace absolutely world class players, and the players we have bedded in over the last two-three years haven't stepped up as required. IMO, it’s that simple, and there is no quick fix. Our 2015 team was, almost man for man, better than our current team, and will likely be better than what we can put out next year.
On the plus side, I’m not sure many teams have really improved since 2015, the Irish, the Wobs look likely right now, and Saffas are potentially very dangerous.
With no injuries, we are right there though, but without some key players, it’s an average AB team. Some bad luck but also bad management has lead us here. Bad luck would be the locks and props and hooker where injuries have taken away players ready (eg, Hames, Nepo, Moli) or getting there (eg, Aumua). Plus some injuries during the lead up (Moody, Cane, Franks, Squire) has meant we have a number of players under cooked right now, which makes us look worse. So, with most of those players back and with a bit of rugby, we could be laughing next year with a much bigger group of players ready to step up.
Bad management includes a bit of a lack of planning and investment for the future, including mainly Luatua, but also losing Vito too, while holding on to Kaino for the Lions, meaning that we are one year out from the WC with a back row light on experience - after keeping some players on contract who shouldn't have been. IMO, not trying to keep Charlie for two more years was also a shame (understandable given his age and the choice between him or Franks, but Charlie was playing really well). They had spent big on Savea in 2015, and I suspect they are paying too much for SBW, when they should really know that we can produce 11-15 all over the ship, but 1 through 10 is much harder, and 1 through 8 lay the platform for us to win test matches.
With Nepo back, I think we are looking OK at TH, as although Franks is looking like he should be put out to pasture, with the three of them (including Tuungofasi) we are alright for the WC and then just need some new blood post that (e.g., Moli). I think Ofa has been excellent, and has done a fantastic job stepping in to Charlie's role, so it's only really hindsight and Franks' current form that makes me miss Charlie, I guess. With Nepo fit, I doubt I'll be concerned.
LH is suddenly a bit of a problem. Moody is shit right now, and hopefully that’s just due to a lack of rugby. Karl looks better than Hames, which is incredibly lucky, but both of them look a bit unfit (Karl was really struggling in the last 10 last week). After that, it’s looking a bit weak.
Hooker is fine if Coles comes back with any form. We’d then have him and Taylor for now, both world class, with Aumua for the future, and adequate squaddies around when needed. The problem is that Harris and the chubby toddler are there due to two injuries. It’s worth remembering that, as we could be much much stronger overnight if Coles regains fitness. Of course, if he doesn't, Taylor's value, well, Mastercard and all that. My third biggest concern.
Locks are a problem, because there are just less physically able bodies about. For that reason, a bit more effort into developing Bird would probably have been a good idea, because he came right at Super level for the Chiefs then left. But, some of that is on the players not working out (I’m looking at you Tuips), so hard to put that on the coaches. I suspect that if Tuips has gone to the Landers or Saders, he’d be a better player and ready to be the bench player and potential starter that he should be. Can’t really lay that at Shag’s door. If he has become the player he was developed to be, our bench would be pretty fearsome and he could do the starter role too.
So, simply put, we just have a huge lack of class behind two absolute greats. Romano has filled in well, but has never been the future, and Tuips hasn’t worked out - yet. He is still young though, so still could get there with some greater consistency. Players with the workrate seem to be too small (Barrett, Hemopo, although we’ll find out). This is actually my biggest area of concern for us because we have put lots into Scott Barrett and I'm still not convinced he's even better than Romano. Those watching the young dudes might provide us with some hope here, but right now we are so dependent on SW and BBBR, I’d have lock identification and development as an absolute priority. For that reason, selecting Fifita looks a real bad idea, and one that is a bit unfathomable for me. Surely, there are others they could be looking at, such as Louisi?
Regarding the loosies, with Read missing, it’s the huge gap in class that many predicted would appear once we lost the obvious back up (Luatua). Akira appears to be the answer to many of us, but he’s not ready, doesn’t have the workrate, or is a dick. I’m worried that he’ll get the same Luatua treatment, in which case he’ll leave right about the same time as he becomes world class, and there seems to be a bit of a pattern with some of the Auckland boys (Luatua, Tuips, Akira) being harder to get integrated. Is that because they are fat and unfit? Uncoached? Uncoachable? I think some of this can be laid at the Blues not really developing players. Ofa has come on as an All Black, so I'm happy that Akira keeps getting tot he camps, even if he isn't named. A t least, he should know what he needs to do.
Anyway, putting Akira aside, this is clearly the major problem right now because I'm not convinced that Read will come back any good. Whitelock is good without being good enough to be a dominant AB 8 to take us through to a WC wine - my god I wish Luatua were out there. Whitelock makes some dominant tackles and does plenty of leg work, which makes him Sam Cane II (who I think will be ok once he actually gets fit), but he does much less around the field as a creator in comparison to Read (or Luatua), making us very reliant on Moody, Taylor, Squire and BBBR to get us metres and offloads.
At my most optimistic, Squire looks like Kaino in 2004/2005, Messam in 2008/2009 and Vito in 2010/2011, in that he appears to have the tools, but can't consistently do it for 80, or even 60. But, who else is there? @tim would say Akira at 6, but I think he's a natural 8. Fifita is an athlete who doesn't seem to do the hard yards (also, Kaino 2004 reminiscent), and was missing as a ball runner too, while Taufua is small (and injured, and better at 8). If we can solve that problem, we are much more set, but we are really just hoping that Read comes back and that Squire works out, or, that they've literally picked the next Kaino from nowhere and @nepia is wrong about the new boy.
Backup 7 is fine, with Todd the next starter always on stand by. Ardie made more tackles than anyone else last week (Source: ESPN stats) but still doesn’t seem to have a clear role. I’m not as down on him as others, especially off the bench, but I feel like Taufua could do the same role better.
Anyway, I'm tired now, but I think we are fine in the backs - Dagg, Ben Lam, Thompson, Taimanivalu, Alaimalo can't even get into the team (some of them are miles away), and although I'd like us to have another WC ten coming through, I'm much happier about 10 with Barrett looking OK, Mo'unga looking ready, and Dmac looking OK in the bench role. The halfbacks both played like shit last week, but we have heaps of depth, so no dramas there, and more quality midfielders than we have places for.
If we can solve our dissolving depth and lack of experience up front, we're fine. If not, we're buggered.
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@mariner4life I'm guessing that's bang on. Hansen may have a promising career as a PR when he pulls the plug.
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@gt12 interesting Savea made more tackles as looks so busy doing fuck all so often, although Wayne Smith always talked about dominant or passive tackles and I struggle to think many if any of Saveas tackles are dominant ones.
He seems to have all the raw ingredients to be awesome, but lacks the presence out there he has at his command. Also seems to have regressed considerably since he burst onto the scene and there were plenty (of idiots
) saying he should start over Cane.Are a number of talented young locks out there, but not sure many of them are ready for that next step just yet, especially when they will inevitably be compared with SW & BBBR, arguably the finest locking duo about.
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I'm having an afternoon at home today, so I'm planning to watch the game again, but I'd agree that he tends to make tackles, but not necessarily dominant ones. At least, that's my impression. However, I've wondered whether he is like Nayman on the Wire (season 4), where his ridiculous hairstyle makes everything he does so visible. He's clearly one of the players, who has had time invested in him, who hasn't made the next step. However, I agree that he still has the tools if he can be used right. My problem with him right now is that he seems to be hanging around looking for turnovers, when he could have a much simpler role, which is high energy tackles and runs, like a energizer Cane.
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@gt12 said in All Blacks v France Test #2:
I'm having an afternoon at home today, so I'm planning to watch the game again, but I'd agree that he tends to make tackles, but not necessarily dominant ones. At least, that's my impression. However, I've wondered whether he is like Nayman on the Wire (season 4), where his ridiculous hairstyle makes everything he does so visible. He's clearly one of the players, who has had time invested in him, who hasn't made the next step. However, I agree that he still has the tools if he can be used right. My problem with him right now is that he seems to be hanging around looking for turnovers, when he could have a much simpler role, which is high energy tackles and runs, like a energizer Cane.
Mate, if I had the afternoon off I can think of thousands of better things to do than to watch that dross again.
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haha okay what the fuck?
