Black Caps vs Windies Series
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@bovidae said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
I'm not 100% convinced the ball did hit the bat, or that there was evidence to give the batsmen out. The big white mark on hotspot was from the bat hitting the ground.
NZ did as expected in this series, winning 2-0 with neither test going into the 5th day. The Windies will be much better in the short-forms.
Timely as I was watching this today. Not saying your doubts are in this league but by Christ it still rankles - we had them on toast.
Sorry for the distraction but someone mentioned competitive tests
9 minutes in (if you like hitting your knob with a hammer repeatedly)
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@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Some impressive names on that list.....
Not really. It surprises me that Left Arm fast/seam bowlers are very under-represented. I'd guess only Akram would make a top 20 of all time list out of those guys.
There are some good but not great middling bowlers on that list. Although lots of cricket bowling lists are getting like that tbh due to the shear number of tests played in modern cricket (surprising given how much we moan about lack of tests).
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Some impressive names on that list.....
Not really. It surprises me that Left Arm fast/seam bowlers are very under-represented. I'd guess only Akram would make a top 20 of all time list out of those guys.
There are some good but not great middling bowlers on that list. Although lots of cricket bowling lists are getting like that tbh due to the shear number of tests played in modern cricket (surprising given how much we moan about lack of tests).
Wasim is a dead set all time great but the others are all pretty good. I hear Sobers could bat a bit too.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Some impressive names on that list.....
Not really. It surprises me that Left Arm fast/seam bowlers are very under-represented. I'd guess only Akram would make a top 20 of all time list out of those guys.
There are some good but not great middling bowlers on that list. Although lots of cricket bowling lists are getting like that tbh due to the shear number of tests played in modern cricket (surprising given how much we moan about lack of tests).
Wasim is a dead set all time great but the others are all pretty good. I hear Sobers could bat a bit too.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time batsmen list left-handers would be well over-represented.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time bowlers list left-handers would be well under-represented.
That list above included only 1 all time great bowler (Wasim). The rest of them, by all-times standards are fairly mediocre. This surprised me, that there are so few prolific left arm fast bowlers in cricket history.
Full list:
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Some impressive names on that list.....
Not really. It surprises me that Left Arm fast/seam bowlers are very under-represented. I'd guess only Akram would make a top 20 of all time list out of those guys.
There are some good but not great middling bowlers on that list. Although lots of cricket bowling lists are getting like that tbh due to the shear number of tests played in modern cricket (surprising given how much we moan about lack of tests).
Wasim is a dead set all time great but the others are all pretty good. I hear Sobers could bat a bit too.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time batsmen list left-handers would be well over-represented.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time bowlers list left-handers would be well under-represented.
That list above included only 1 all time great bowler (Wasim). The rest of them, by all-times standards are fairly mediocre. This surprised me, that there are so few prolific left arm fast bowlers in cricket history.
Full list:
I guess the LBW law hurts left-arm pace bowlers in that regard, while helping left hand batsmen. Wasim and Boult negate it by being able to swing the ball in to right handers. But if your not swinging the ball it makes it difficult to get many batsmen trapped in front.
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@pakman said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Noticed the batting point some time ago. Put it down to bowlers getting much less practice to lefties.
As for bowling, list would suggest some mechanical disadvantage bowling left arm to righties.
I think lefties are pretty proportionately represented in the bowling stats, it's just batsmen that are wildly over represented (I think it's about 10% of the population and 50% of batsmen.
I think it's much rarer to have left arm bowlers because bowling action is quite awkward to learn and I suspect most lefties probably get coached to bowl right handed.
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Some impressive names on that list.....
Not really. It surprises me that Left Arm fast/seam bowlers are very under-represented. I'd guess only Akram would make a top 20 of all time list out of those guys.
There are some good but not great middling bowlers on that list. Although lots of cricket bowling lists are getting like that tbh due to the shear number of tests played in modern cricket (surprising given how much we moan about lack of tests).
Wasim is a dead set all time great but the others are all pretty good. I hear Sobers could bat a bit too.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time batsmen list left-handers would be well over-represented.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time bowlers list left-handers would be well under-represented.
That list above included only 1 all time great bowler (Wasim). The rest of them, by all-times standards are fairly mediocre. This surprised me, that there are so few prolific left arm fast bowlers in cricket history.
Full list:
Mediocre is a bit rough, they were all pretty decent in their respective eras. Johnson in particular played in an era where under 30 is considered bloody good. I do hear your 'all time' argument though.
This bloke would have trumped the lot if only he played a couple more tests. Outstanding record....
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@cyclops said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
I think it's much rarer to have left arm bowlers because bowling action is quite awkward to learn and I suspect most lefties probably get coached to bowl right handed.
no way.
I don't believe that at all. -
Speaking as a leftie, who used to open the bowling when I played, I always preferred to bowl around the wicket rather than over to right-handed batsmen. The natural arm action means you swing the ball into the batsmen and if you can move the ball away off the pitch all the better. Obviously that isn't the conventional way but it worked for me.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Some impressive names on that list.....
Not really. It surprises me that Left Arm fast/seam bowlers are very under-represented. I'd guess only Akram would make a top 20 of all time list out of those guys.
There are some good but not great middling bowlers on that list. Although lots of cricket bowling lists are getting like that tbh due to the shear number of tests played in modern cricket (surprising given how much we moan about lack of tests).
Wasim is a dead set all time great but the others are all pretty good. I hear Sobers could bat a bit too.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time batsmen list left-handers would be well over-represented.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time bowlers list left-handers would be well under-represented.
That list above included only 1 all time great bowler (Wasim). The rest of them, by all-times standards are fairly mediocre. This surprised me, that there are so few prolific left arm fast bowlers in cricket history.
Full list:
Mediocre is a bit rough, they were all pretty decent in their respective eras. Johnson in particular played in an era where under 30 is considered bloody good.
This bloke would have trumped the lot if only he played a couple more tests. Outstanding record....
Yes it is a bit rough. But it's in the context of all-time list of greatest bowlers.
I think only Wasim and Alan Davidson would make all time list of pace bowlers. Statisitically Trent Boult is a LH version of an Angus Fraser or Andy Caddick. Good but not all time great, yet he is top 5 or 6 in the Left Arm pace wicket takes.
Johnson was a beast on his day, up there with the best ever. But he would get crossed off by most people for his inconsistently fairly quickly when coming up with lists of greatest bowlers.
Starc has potential to have a great career.
I have a lot of respect for Vaas, both in his younger nippier form and his older wiley version. NZ fans saw a lot of him, I saw a lot of him on some very unresponsive pitches. where as I saw a lot less of e.g Zaheer Khan.
But facts are facts. There aren't many sub 25 averaging left arm pace bowlers.And there aren't many who took bags of wickets.
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In contrast I googled a list of best left handed batsmen. Maybe half of these blokes have all time great status?
Sir Garry Sobers (West Indies)
David Gower (England)
Clive Lloyd (West Indies)
Neil Harvey (Australia)
Brian Lara (West Indies)
Alan Border (Australia)
Saeed Anwar (Pakistan)
Mathew Hayden (Australia)
Adam Gilchrist (Australia)
Saurav Ganguly (India)Kumar Sangakara is a glaring omission here. Justin Langer worthy of a mention if Gower and Ganguly are....
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94 right arm pace bowlers have taken 100 or more test wickets.
14 left arm pace bowlers have taken 100 or more test wickets. (Doesn't include Sobers who comes under a different category 'mixed' in statsguru)So by my maths 12.9% of pace bowlers to have taken 100 or more test wickets are let armers. Keeping in line with 10% of society being left handed. Move along, nothing to see here.
But only 2 of them are all time greats ....... About 20 of the right armers I'd quickly tally as all time greats. Faaark. That's still pretty much 10% .......
Left Armers:
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@cyclops said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
I think it's much rarer to have left arm bowlers because bowling action is quite awkward to learn and I suspect most lefties probably get coached to bowl right handed.
no way.
I don't believe that at all.I can't look it up at the moment but I have a feeling that there are quite a few guys who are left handed, bat left but bowl right. Just a guess of course but fits the facts. I don't mean coaching at pro level though, more like 10 or 12 when kids are first learning to bowl and dad or a senior club player is showing you how to roll your arm over.
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
94 right arm pace bowlers have taken 100 or more test wickets.
14 left arm pace bowlers have taken 100 or more test wickets. (Doesn't include Sobers who comes under a different category 'mixed' in statsguru)So by my maths 12.9% of pace bowlers to have taken 100 or more test wickets are let armers. Keeping in line with 10% of society being left handed. Move along, nothing to see here.
But only 2 of them are all time greats ....... About 20 of the right armers I'd quickly tally as all time greats. Faaark. That's still 10% .......
Can you do this for batsmen too? I guarantee the list will be more in their favour.....
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@cyclops said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@cyclops said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
I think it's much rarer to have left arm bowlers because bowling action is quite awkward to learn and I suspect most lefties probably get coached to bowl right handed.
no way.
I don't believe that at all.I can't look it up at the moment but I have a feeling that there are quite a few guys who are left handed, bat left but bowl right. Just a guess of course but fits the facts. I don't mean coaching at pro level though, more like 10 or 12 when kids are first learning to bowl and dad or a senior club player is showing you how to roll your arm over.
Yes.
But the It's the other way around.
Statisticaly significant proportion of people tend to bat the 'wrong' way around. But bowl and throw with their strong hand.
The reasons for it are usually explained by some people insticntively being top handed rather than bottom handed when they bat, or even simple kit reasons like their older brother or club only had right handed gloves.
No sane coach teaches someone to bowl with their weak arm.
These guys tend to be over represented at the top level. Something for coaches to really look into.
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Top Left hand batsmen. min 5000 runs.
28 players.
only 4 of them were actually left handed.
Border, Sobers, Jayasuriya, Lawry.The rest are right handers batting cack handed. If it was baseball - there would be some serious study having gone into this and coaches teaching people to bat with a strong top hand.
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
Alan Davidson (cricketer, born 1929) - Wikipedia
