Black Caps vs Windies Series
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Some impressive names on that list.....
Not really. It surprises me that Left Arm fast/seam bowlers are very under-represented. I'd guess only Akram would make a top 20 of all time list out of those guys.
There are some good but not great middling bowlers on that list. Although lots of cricket bowling lists are getting like that tbh due to the shear number of tests played in modern cricket (surprising given how much we moan about lack of tests).
Wasim is a dead set all time great but the others are all pretty good. I hear Sobers could bat a bit too.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time batsmen list left-handers would be well over-represented.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time bowlers list left-handers would be well under-represented.
That list above included only 1 all time great bowler (Wasim). The rest of them, by all-times standards are fairly mediocre. This surprised me, that there are so few prolific left arm fast bowlers in cricket history.
Full list:
Mediocre is a bit rough, they were all pretty decent in their respective eras. Johnson in particular played in an era where under 30 is considered bloody good. I do hear your 'all time' argument though.
This bloke would have trumped the lot if only he played a couple more tests. Outstanding record....
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@cyclops said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
I think it's much rarer to have left arm bowlers because bowling action is quite awkward to learn and I suspect most lefties probably get coached to bowl right handed.
no way.
I don't believe that at all. -
Speaking as a leftie, who used to open the bowling when I played, I always preferred to bowl around the wicket rather than over to right-handed batsmen. The natural arm action means you swing the ball into the batsmen and if you can move the ball away off the pitch all the better. Obviously that isn't the conventional way but it worked for me.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Some impressive names on that list.....
Not really. It surprises me that Left Arm fast/seam bowlers are very under-represented. I'd guess only Akram would make a top 20 of all time list out of those guys.
There are some good but not great middling bowlers on that list. Although lots of cricket bowling lists are getting like that tbh due to the shear number of tests played in modern cricket (surprising given how much we moan about lack of tests).
Wasim is a dead set all time great but the others are all pretty good. I hear Sobers could bat a bit too.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time batsmen list left-handers would be well over-represented.
My point being. If you did a top 20 of all time bowlers list left-handers would be well under-represented.
That list above included only 1 all time great bowler (Wasim). The rest of them, by all-times standards are fairly mediocre. This surprised me, that there are so few prolific left arm fast bowlers in cricket history.
Full list:
Mediocre is a bit rough, they were all pretty decent in their respective eras. Johnson in particular played in an era where under 30 is considered bloody good.
This bloke would have trumped the lot if only he played a couple more tests. Outstanding record....
Yes it is a bit rough. But it's in the context of all-time list of greatest bowlers.
I think only Wasim and Alan Davidson would make all time list of pace bowlers. Statisitically Trent Boult is a LH version of an Angus Fraser or Andy Caddick. Good but not all time great, yet he is top 5 or 6 in the Left Arm pace wicket takes.
Johnson was a beast on his day, up there with the best ever. But he would get crossed off by most people for his inconsistently fairly quickly when coming up with lists of greatest bowlers.
Starc has potential to have a great career.
I have a lot of respect for Vaas, both in his younger nippier form and his older wiley version. NZ fans saw a lot of him, I saw a lot of him on some very unresponsive pitches. where as I saw a lot less of e.g Zaheer Khan.
But facts are facts. There aren't many sub 25 averaging left arm pace bowlers.And there aren't many who took bags of wickets.
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In contrast I googled a list of best left handed batsmen. Maybe half of these blokes have all time great status?
Sir Garry Sobers (West Indies)
David Gower (England)
Clive Lloyd (West Indies)
Neil Harvey (Australia)
Brian Lara (West Indies)
Alan Border (Australia)
Saeed Anwar (Pakistan)
Mathew Hayden (Australia)
Adam Gilchrist (Australia)
Saurav Ganguly (India)Kumar Sangakara is a glaring omission here. Justin Langer worthy of a mention if Gower and Ganguly are....
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94 right arm pace bowlers have taken 100 or more test wickets.
14 left arm pace bowlers have taken 100 or more test wickets. (Doesn't include Sobers who comes under a different category 'mixed' in statsguru)So by my maths 12.9% of pace bowlers to have taken 100 or more test wickets are let armers. Keeping in line with 10% of society being left handed. Move along, nothing to see here.
But only 2 of them are all time greats ....... About 20 of the right armers I'd quickly tally as all time greats. Faaark. That's still pretty much 10% .......
Left Armers:
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@cyclops said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
I think it's much rarer to have left arm bowlers because bowling action is quite awkward to learn and I suspect most lefties probably get coached to bowl right handed.
no way.
I don't believe that at all.I can't look it up at the moment but I have a feeling that there are quite a few guys who are left handed, bat left but bowl right. Just a guess of course but fits the facts. I don't mean coaching at pro level though, more like 10 or 12 when kids are first learning to bowl and dad or a senior club player is showing you how to roll your arm over.
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
94 right arm pace bowlers have taken 100 or more test wickets.
14 left arm pace bowlers have taken 100 or more test wickets. (Doesn't include Sobers who comes under a different category 'mixed' in statsguru)So by my maths 12.9% of pace bowlers to have taken 100 or more test wickets are let armers. Keeping in line with 10% of society being left handed. Move along, nothing to see here.
But only 2 of them are all time greats ....... About 20 of the right armers I'd quickly tally as all time greats. Faaark. That's still 10% .......
Can you do this for batsmen too? I guarantee the list will be more in their favour.....
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@cyclops said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@cyclops said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
I think it's much rarer to have left arm bowlers because bowling action is quite awkward to learn and I suspect most lefties probably get coached to bowl right handed.
no way.
I don't believe that at all.I can't look it up at the moment but I have a feeling that there are quite a few guys who are left handed, bat left but bowl right. Just a guess of course but fits the facts. I don't mean coaching at pro level though, more like 10 or 12 when kids are first learning to bowl and dad or a senior club player is showing you how to roll your arm over.
Yes.
But the It's the other way around.
Statisticaly significant proportion of people tend to bat the 'wrong' way around. But bowl and throw with their strong hand.
The reasons for it are usually explained by some people insticntively being top handed rather than bottom handed when they bat, or even simple kit reasons like their older brother or club only had right handed gloves.
No sane coach teaches someone to bowl with their weak arm.
These guys tend to be over represented at the top level. Something for coaches to really look into.
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Top Left hand batsmen. min 5000 runs.
28 players.
only 4 of them were actually left handed.
Border, Sobers, Jayasuriya, Lawry.The rest are right handers batting cack handed. If it was baseball - there would be some serious study having gone into this and coaches teaching people to bat with a strong top hand.
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Top Left hand batsmen. min 5000 runs.
28 players.
only 5 of them were actually left handed.
Border, Sobers, Jayasuriya, Lawry.The rest are right handers batting cack handed. If it was baseball - there would be some serious study having gone into this and coaches teaching people to bat with a strong bottom hand.
I remember reading that Sir Paddles batted left handed but swung a golf club right handed !
Have any of you guys heard of him? He was one of our more decent right handed bowlers back in the day.
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
66 right hand batsmen meet the same criteria of 5000 runs.
But of them I think only 1, Michael Clarke, was left handed.
Your knowledge is staggering. Hats off to you sir
I'm a left hander and I bat left handed although I'm probably not quite test class, I couldn't imagine batting right handed. It would feel way too weird.
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Quite a lot of left-right combos is probably just instinctive, I think.
I do almost all sports things right handed (and footed), but I write left handed, shoot a rifle left handed, and a handful of other things. None coached and all pretty much just how I naturally picked things up.
Michael Parkinson wrote an amusing story about his father - a mad keen cricketer - who manufactured a team of left handed batsmen because he thought no bowler liked bowling to them.
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@chris-b said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Quite a lot of left-right combos is probably just instinctive, I think.
I do almost all sports things right handed (and footed), but I write left handed, shoot a rifle left handed, and a handful of other things. None coached and all pretty much just how I naturally picked things up.
Michael Parkinson wrote an amusing story about his father - a mad keen cricketer - who manufactured a team of left handed batsmen because he thought no bowler liked bowling to them.
My last foray in cricket was indoor and the odd game of 20/20 and I see his point. I hated left handers even though I am one!
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@rapido How do you know these stats?
Paddles' golf swing is pretty weird - I wondered if maybe Walter had left handed clubs, but apparently not - he batted and bowled right-handed.
Backyard sports would have been quite interesting on the Hadlees' lawn.
"You have a bat, Mum".
"Alright, but if you bounce me again Richard it will be the fucking jam spoon for you!"
(See Dick run).
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@chris-b Bob Charles obviously plays golf left handed, does everything right handed bar sports that require 2 hands (cricket, golf)
Always remember a coaching thing I went to, he has always felt someones dominant hand should be the top one on a bat/club.
My father plays golf or cricket left handed, but writes and does everything else right handed too.
I'm a total righty, unco cnut with my left.
edit - a lot of good cricketers are good golfers, Brian Lara was reputedly the same low handicap (4 or 5) right or left handed, but preferred to play golf right handed otherwise it messed with his cricket stroke.
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@chris-b said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
@rapido How do you know these stats?
Just by judging what hand they throw or bowl with. Not their golf or handwriting .........
If i don't know, e.g. those before my time - I click on their name hyperlink in the list. Their bowling style is noted in their profiles - even the occasional/never bowlers like an Andrew Strauss.
I didn't check the 66 RH batters, just did it by eyeing the names in the list - therefore I said "I think only one of them".
I did check the LH batters who I didn't know. e.,g. Bill Lawry
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@chris-b said in Black Caps vs Windies Test Series:
Quite a lot of left-right combos is probably just instinctive, I think.
There is no rhyme or reason for it. In a cricket context, Paddles and Snedden were the same (bowl right, bat left) and Boult is the opposite. Santner and Anderson are true cricketing lefties, and Santner plays golf left-handed (2 handicap). Boult plays right-handed.
Same in rugby, McCaw is one of the chosen few while Carter only writes left-handed.
I do almost all sports things right handed (and footed), but I write left handed, shoot a rifle left handed, and a handful of other things. None coached and all pretty much just how I naturally picked things up.
I would classify myself as 99% leftie but I shoot right-handed and I can't use left-handed scissors. We always had some in the house as my mother and a sister are also left-handed. I was never made to change in sports and there were advantages in some sports like tennis.
Bowling records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | ESPNcricinfo.com
Alan Davidson (cricketer, born 1929) - Wikipedia
