Vegas Shooting
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@reprobate said in Vegas Shooting:
@no-quarter said in Vegas Shooting:
@reprobate said in Vegas Shooting:
this whole gun control vs gun culture thing is such a load of shit. they are effectively the same thing.
if you have a tight control of gun sales, ownership, carrying, use, then what follows?
if you have guns everywhere, all sort of guns, gun shows, shops selling them everywhere, people carrying them in public, every household having one - then is that a gun control issue or a gun culture issue?
it's just a red herring from those who don't want gun control.so too the 'ship has sailed' brigade. something is so wrong that there is no point trying to do anything about it. that's just fucken pathetic.
The point is it's not purely about laws. Tightening up laws where possible would be a step in the right direction, but it's not even close to being the silver bullet for this problem. And it won't stop people committing mass shootings (in that I mean someone trying to kill as many innocent strangers as possible). All of the "mass shooting" stats I see include things like gang warfare etc - that's a culture problem, not a lack of enough laws.
The States has a pretty unique history, and the right to bear arms is actually written into their constituion as a result. The military is at the forefront of everything they do. Those two things are synonymous with the USA.
Clearly gun control and gun culture go hand in hand, but they are not the same thing. Good luck trying to take away something people already have by changing a couple of laws. It's much easier to give people something then it is to take it away, and people won't be keen to give up their guns in a hurry - that's going to take a massive culture shift.
Laws don't fix everything, in fact they can often make the situation worse when things go to the black market instead of having any kind of regulation.
obviously it's not a silver bullet. change takes time. it's pretty obviously a worthwhile change and a direction worth moving in. i don't think you really believe that more control will make it worse?
making guns less accessible, particularly auto / semi-auto absolutely will reduce mass shootings. of course it won't stop all of them, that's why they still happen in other places too. but the situation where someone just loses their shit and goes on a rampage is a whole lot less damaging if what he has at hand is a baseball bat.
it will reduce suicides.
it will reduce accidental deaths. fucking toddlers shooting each other.
it will reduce 'anger' murders.just because it isn't going to be 'oh well that's that solved', doesn't mean you don't do it.
No, I obviously don't agree that more control will make it worse, but it will hardly make a dent in the problem. Just look at Chicago etc. After every one of these mass shootings you get calls for gun control that would have made sfa difference. I truly wish that wasn't the case, but reality is a bitch sometimes.
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Police confirm that at least one of the weapons was fitted with a bump stock, allowing a higher rate of fire.
If you're looking for things to crack down on, weapon mods are first.
Secondly, though it'll never happen, a national database of gun owners and their quantity of guns should be available for dealers to see. Enforce maximums of a particular type of firearm.
You're never going to control the amount of ammo someone has, because who is going to monitoring how many rounds have been used outside a range?
So just make bullets hideously expensive:
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I don't understand the media frenzy. If people didn't care about children being massacred, why would anyone care about adults listening to country music?
As Richo wrote in The Australian today:
Only in America do people wander around in the woods, dressed in army fatigues, practising drills about defending themselves from imaginary attack. They are not thinking about a war or invasion by the dreaded Russians or pesky Chinese, or even the North Koreans. No, these lunatics are training to resist their own government. There is an illness in the US, through every city, village, hamlet or farmhouse. This Second Amendment, which protects the right to bear arms, was promulgated when it took two or three minutes to prime a musket. Now one idiot with a sub-machine gun can kill 59 people and wound more than 500 others in not much more time than it took to prime that musket.
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I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.
By Leah Libresco
Washington Post
October 3 at 3:02 PMLeah Libresco is a statistician and former newswriter at FiveThirtyEight, a data journalism site. She is the author of “Arriving at Amen.”
Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.
Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I’d lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence.
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For all the teeth-gnashers and pearl-clutchers who can't stomach gun control in Amurica -- avoid the place, don't go there under any circumstances, and you'll be safe as houses, honest.
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@salacious-crumb Or we could look to Australia where for ~7800 days Australian citizens have wandered around without being victims of a mass-shooting. As the Betoota Advocate points out:
"...the peaceful two decades that have followed are "probably" because the Australian government decided to strip us of our God-given right to own projectile weaponry capable of shooting down helicopters."
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@no-quarter said in Vegas Shooting:
Next, gun control. As a couple of people have already pointed out, the issues in the States are less about gun control and more about culture. There is an estimated 1.2 million guns in circulation in NZ, though police admit they have lost control of the actual figures, and the weapons used to carry out for example the Port Arthur massacre are not that hard to get hold of. So it's not like NZ has no guns, in fact we have a pretty high rate of gun ownership given our population, but we don't have anywhere near the gun-related homicides of other countries like the States.
Was talking to a cop with the AOS who was one of the first at the scene with regard to the shooting up here a couple of months back, the guy had clear mental health issues, but had sourced guns and mods via friends and illegal means, sourced larger magazines for rapid fire...he had an arsenal, including grenades and loads of ammo.
Some of what I was told about what happened vs what made the media was eye-opening, but agree with you it is the culture that makes it more of a problem in the US than controls.
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@salacious-crumb said in Vegas Shooting:
I used to think gun control was the answer. My research told me otherwise.
By Leah Libresco
Washington Post
October 3 at 3:02 PMLeah Libresco is a statistician and former newswriter at FiveThirtyEight, a data journalism site. She is the author of “Arriving at Amen.”
Before I started researching gun deaths, gun-control policy used to frustrate me. I wished the National Rifle Association would stop blocking common-sense gun-control reforms such as banning assault weapons, restricting silencers, shrinking magazine sizes and all the other measures that could make guns less deadly.
Then, my colleagues and I at FiveThirtyEight spent three months analyzing all 33,000 lives ended by guns each year in the United States, and I wound up frustrated in a whole new way. We looked at what interventions might have saved those people, and the case for the policies I’d lobbied for crumbled when I examined the evidence.
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opinions, like arseholes. her viewpoint is anti the policies that have been touted. she is not saying that gun control as a whole doesn't work.
banning 'assault' weapons while allowing handguns won't impact suicide - no shit.
banning assault weapons without banning the mods won't work. no shit. the answer to that isn't to not ban the weapons. it's to ban the mods too.
australia not having mass shootings since increased control may not be statistically significant due to a small data set, or the link to control may not be provable - but the fact that america, with lax gun control, has far more than comparable countries is the meaningful statistic.
talk about not seeing the wood for trees. -
Aren't mass shootings and gun violence in general two separate issues?
Was it due to lax gun controls that a rich retiree decided to book into a hotel under a fake ID and spray bullets at a huge crowd below? Doubtful. All it takes is one massively fucked up and very motivated individual.
Why are calls for gun control at their absolute loudest after incidents that such controls most probably would not have stopped?
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@nta there was a short piece about the guy that runs one of the national (I don't think it was state level) data centres for tracking gun ownership info.
Holy. Shit. All on paper, sweet F all funding, and they copped all sorts of obstruction from other agencies etc.
I think this actually came up in one of our gun threads - but is another thread in how pervasive guns are in the US.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Vegas Shooting:
Aren't mass shootings and gun violence in general two separate issues?
Was it due to lax gun controls that a rich retiree decided to book into a hotel under a fake ID and spray bullets at a huge crowd below? Doubtful. All it takes is one massively fucked up and very motivated individual.
Why are calls for gun control at their absolute loudest after incidents that such controls most probably would not have stopped?
True. I think there are about 7 or 8 separate issues here, to be honest.
Another is the fact that the US seems to have a much higher supply of 'massively fucked up and very motivated' individuals than other Western nations. But that's another massive can of worms...
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Vegas Shooting:
Aren't mass shootings and gun violence in general two separate issues?
Was it due to lax gun controls that a rich retiree decided to book into a hotel under a fake ID and spray bullets at a huge crowd below? Doubtful. All it takes is one massively fucked up and very motivated individual.
Why are calls for gun control at their absolute loudest after incidents that such controls most probably would not have stopped?
I think the most alarming thing ( at least to anyone outside of the US) is how it’s considered ‘normal’ to carry 10 suitcases full of guns into a hotel room and no one bats any eyelid.
It’s legal over there to do so, to me that’s the most fucked up part of this. -
which thread was the clip of the guy filming his mate in a balaclava walk into a Cop Station with a gun posted, their argument was they were being lawful in carrying the weapon IIRC.
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@paekakboyz said in Vegas Shooting:
@nta there was a short piece about the guy that runs one of the national (I don't think it was state level) data centres for tracking gun ownership info.
Holy. Shit. All on paper, sweet F all funding, and they copped all sorts of obstruction from other agencies etc.
I think this actually came up in one of our gun threads - but is another thread in how pervasive guns are in the US.
Yes it did because I remember reading about it and thinking "Well fuck mate, just go find another job".
But they were some very motivated people, doing a shitty task in order to help others, so I applaud them.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Vegas Shooting:
Aren't mass shootings and gun violence in general two separate issues?
Was it due to lax gun controls that a rich retiree decided to book into a hotel under a fake ID and spray bullets at a huge crowd below? Doubtful. All it takes is one massively fucked up and very motivated individual.
Why are calls for gun control at their absolute loudest after incidents that such controls most probably would not have stopped?
there are several issues being discussed, however countries with gun control very much do have fewer mass shootings than the US.
being able to theorise that 'if someone really wanted to they still could' does not change that fact, nor does it mean making it easy for them is okay.
do the retirees you know in nz have easy access to automatic or semi-automatic weapons? -
http://www.dailywire.com/news/21908/watch-shapiro-fiercely-shreds-kimmels-gun-control-daily-wire
I am pro gun control. But the virtue signalling over all this is getting beyond a joke.
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@reprobate said in Vegas Shooting:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Vegas Shooting:
Aren't mass shootings and gun violence in general two separate issues?
Was it due to lax gun controls that a rich retiree decided to book into a hotel under a fake ID and spray bullets at a huge crowd below? Doubtful. All it takes is one massively fucked up and very motivated individual.
Why are calls for gun control at their absolute loudest after incidents that such controls most probably would not have stopped?
there are several issues being discussed, however countries with gun control very much do have fewer mass shootings than the US.
being able to theorise that 'if someone really wanted to they still could' does not change that fact, nor does it mean making it easy for them is okay.
do the retirees you know in nz have easy access to automatic or semi-automatic weapons?Nope, but if they did it's highly doubtful they'd be tempted to rain bullets down on thousands of innocent people. You don't do something like that because it's convenient.
I think you're also underestimating the availability of guns in other countries. Swiss reservists keep assault rifles in their homes. Same applies in Norway. A mate of mine back in the early 2000s had his at home.
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On Tuesday, officials offered new information on Paddock and how he planned the attack. An agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) said that 47 firearms had now been found in three different locations, including the hotel room, and Verde and Mesquite, Nevada. Of those weapons, 12 had devices known as bump stocks attached that allowed semi-automatic rifles to mimic fully automatic gunfire. The agent, Jill Snyder, said officials had determined the devices were legal. The weapons – rifles shotguns pistols – were purchased in Nevada, Utah, California and Texas, she said.
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@baron-silas-greenback said in Vegas Shooting:
http://www.dailywire.com/news/21908/watch-shapiro-fiercely-shreds-kimmels-gun-control-daily-wire
I am pro gun control. But the virtue signalling over all this is getting beyond a joke.
A joke, yes, but also colossal hypocrisy.
Like Michael Moore before him, Kimmel is sermonizing (and lying) to average Americans about how terribly awful they are for wantting to exercise their Constitutionally protected rights to protect themselves and their property -- while at the same time "beefing-up" his own security force with armed men to protect himself/his family/ his own property.
It's another classic example of what the 1% expects as Two-Tier Justice in the United States -- one rule for the VIP "movers 'n shakers" and a very different rule for everybody else. Especially vital are the lives of weepy-eyed highly-paid super-crucial SJW virtue-signallers with their own teevee shows.