All Black Squad for Rugby Championship
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Last years squad for TRC was 32. This training squad is 34. A couple of Crusaders to slot back in as well.
A possible final squad... (33 with an extra outside back to cover Bender's departure)All Blacks squad for two-day camp:
Forwards
Hookers: Dane Coles, Nathan Harris. +Codie TaylorProps:
Kane Hames, Nepo Laulala,Atu Moli,Jeffery Toomaga-Allenand Ofa Tu'ungafasi. + Crockett, Franks, MoodyLocks:
Dominic Bird,Tom Franklin, Brodie Retallick andPatrick Tuipulotu. + Romano, Whitelock, BarrettLoose forwards: Sam Cane,
Vaea Fifita, Akira Ioane, Jerome Kaino, Ardie Savea and Liam Squire. +ReadBacks
Halfbacks: Tawera Kerr-Barlow, TJ Perenara and Aaron Smith.
First five-eighths: Beauden Barrett, Damian McKenzie and Lima Sopoaga.
Midfielders:
Richard Buckman, Ngani Laumape, Anton Lienert-Brown,Charlie Ngatai, Sonny Bill Williams. +CrottyOutside backs: Jordie Barrett, Rieko Ioane,
Nehe Milner-Skudder, Waisake Naholo,Julian Savea, Ben Smith. +Dagg -
mounga isn't ready. he's been vastly better this year, but choked a bit in a couple of big games. fine for him to spend a bit of time with the squad, but in terms of any game time he needs another year of soup rugby (and this final to show peformance under pressure) to show that once other teams have seen a bit of him and had the opportunity to plan, that he can still perform - i.e. no second season blues.
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@Crucial said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
Nehe Milner-SkudderBased on Hansen's comments they back when the Lions squad was picked they are very keen to get NMS back in the squad, and his exclusion was given with a nod and a wink that he would make it for the TRC squad.
He may be released to get maximum game time with a view to bringing him in when Bender goes on sabbatical. But I don't see any scenario where he doesn't make it back during TRC.
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@rotated said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
@Crucial said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
Nehe Milner-SkudderBased on Hansen's comments they back when the Lions squad was picked they are very keen to get NMS back in the squad, and his exclusion was given with a nod and a wink that he would make it for the TRC squad.
He may be released to get maximum game time with a view to bringing him in when Bender goes on sabbatical. But I don't see any scenario where he doesn't make it back during TRC.
That's a fair assessment. I can't see that as a non-goer.
Who would be left out then? My list already has 5 outside backs with Bender being an 'extra'. Who gets swapped out for NMS? Rieko? -
For me the biggest surprise is no Moala. Sure, his form this year wasn't great. But he was very good last year for ABs and his elbow injury swung the game in Chicago just when ABs were about to run away with it.
They are one midfielder short of being able to run 15 v 15.
Clear that Moli and JTA are there because we're thin on ground at TH: https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/rugby/steve-hansen-reveals-owen-franks-achilles-issues-before-rugby-championship
With Read also having to manage knee, 8 also looks weak in the absence of Luatua.
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Both TKB and Fekitoa are available until the end of the year. I'm assuming they feel the gap between TKB and Pulu et al is big enough to warrant keeping him in the squad as opposed to the gap between Fekitoa and Buckman.
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@Milk said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
Both TKB and Fekitoa are available until the end of the year. I'm assuming they feel the gap between TKB and Pulu et al is big enough to warrant keeping him in the squad as opposed to the gap between Fekitoa and Buckman.
Good to see Buckman and Ngatai there. Both have good experience and rugby brains. Fekitoa is a hell of an athlete but hard to believe will ever be known for his decision making.
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@Crucial said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
Last years squad for TRC was 32. This training squad is 34. A couple of Crusaders to slot back in as well.
A possible final squad... (33 with an extra outside back to cover Bender's departure)All Blacks squad for two-day camp:
Forwards
Hookers: Dane Coles, Nathan Harris. +Codie TaylorProps:
Kane Hames, Nepo Laulala,Atu Moli,Jeffery Toomaga-Allenand Ofa Tu'ungafasi. + Crockett, Franks, MoodyLocks:
Dominic Bird,Tom Franklin, Brodie Retallick andPatrick Tuipulotu. + Romano, Whitelock, BarrettLoose forwards: Sam Cane,
Vaea Fifita, Akira Ioane, Jerome Kaino, Ardie Savea and Liam Squire. +ReadBacks
Halfbacks: Tawera Kerr-Barlow, TJ Perenara and Aaron Smith.
First five-eighths: Beauden Barrett, Damian McKenzie and Lima Sopoaga.
Midfielders:
Richard Buckman, Ngani Laumape, Anton Lienert-Brown,Charlie Ngatai, Sonny Bill Williams. +CrottyOutside backs: Jordie Barrett, Rieko Ioane,
Nehe Milner-Skudder, Waisake Naholo,Julian Savea, Ben Smith. +DaggI'd like to see the AB selectors back themselves to get Tuipolotou and Ioane up to speed. Just think Romano as a 4th lock is a bit meh. Doesn't le the side down, but he has a ceiling. I'm quite underwhelmed by Naholo these days also. Dagg, Smith, Barrett, Ioane & NMS for mine.
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@Billy-Tell Romano just doesn't have the physicality of Tuipulotu. The coaching staff seem happy to bring guys in to help them deal with issues and are confident they can bring out the best in guys so I hope they achieve that with Patrick.
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Buckman easily the most pleasing thing about the squad he has been so consistent at Super level and his utility value is massive, You have him on the bench then you dont have to worry about shifting around backline when someone is injured.
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Result of disciplinary appeal: Sonny Bill Williams
An appeal by New Zealand centre Sonny Bill Williams (pictured above) against the matches which a disciplinary committee counted towards his four-week suspension following his red card for dangerous charging contrary to Law 10.4(g) during the second New Zealand versus British and Irish Lions test in Wellington on 1 July has been upheld by an appeal panel independent of World Rugby.
A game being played by New Zealand against Counties Manukau and Taranaki on 11 August that had been excluded from the suspension by the original disciplinary committee has now been deemed to comply with the regulations’ definition of a “match” and, as such, that match will be included as part of the player’s suspension. Accordingly, Williams is suspended from all forms of rugby up to and including 11 August.
The hearing took place on 1 August and was heard by an appeal committee that is independent of World Rugby, chaired by Mr Justice Graeme Mew (Canada) along with Shao-Ing Wang (Singapore) and Stefan Terblanche (South Africa).
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What a bunch of arse covering lawyers. No wonder it takes so long to publish a decision. Someone has to spent days pouring over words to say 'we do not criticize the previous decision' but then go on in detail to shoot down their flawed logic.
At no cost withheld can anyone be seen to be in error, that would be unthinkable.
Therefore they search around for a legal argument to explain how you can be wrong but not wrong. -
@Crucial said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
What a bunch of arse covering lawyers. No wonder it takes so long to publish a decision. Someone has to spent days pouring over words to say 'we do not criticize the previous decision' but then go on in detail to shoot down their flawed logic.
At no cost withheld can anyone be seen to be in error, that would be unthinkable.
Therefore they search around for a legal argument to explain how you can be wrong but not wrong.Starting with just "Australians... huh?" - would have reduced the billable hours far too much.
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From a legal perspective, a very well motivated decision.
The crux, obviously, is that the Judicial Committee - in reaching its original decision - applied the wrong principles in the exercise of its discretion (in assessing the playing consequences of a suspension) by giving an incorrect interpretation of the rules around what constitutes a "meaningful match". This resulted in the erroneous decision that the "game of three halves" was not a meaningful match.
The Appeal Committee comes to another interpretation of what is a "meaningful match" and this leads to a different conclusion: the game of three halves is considered meaningful. For that reason, it upholds the appeal and the game of three halves counts towards the suspension. As a result, SBW is now free to play Bledisloe I.
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I haven't really studied all the detail...but am I correct in saying that in the original decision
- The game of 3 halves didn't count towards the suspesnsion...
2)...but SBW was still banned from playing in the match?
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@Billy-Tell
2) no, he would have be available to play. -
@JayCee said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
@Billy-Tell
2) no, he would have be available to play.The way I understood it, it didn't count towards his ban, yet he still wasn't allowed to play.
That's where I believe their decision was flawed, it made no sense at all.
Bloody Aussies, trying to have their cake and eat it too! -
Think of it this way. If the Super Rugby Finals format wasn't so messed up the Blues would have been in the finals and the quarter final would have counted as part of SBW's ban so i'm happy to see SBW cleared to play the Bledisloe.
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@KiwiMurph or if the silly fecker didn't lead with his shoulder we'd have had 15 men, taken the lions series and he'd be able to play the bled 😊. Even better!
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World Rugby Statement: Sonny Bill Williams Appeal Decision
The governing body is surprised by the decision of an independent panel to uphold the player's appeal in this case. While World Rugby respects the decision of the independent appeal committee to uphold the appeal by New Zealand’s Sonny Bill Williams against the matches that counted towards his four-week suspension, it is surprised by the committee’s interpretation of the definition of “match” (which is defined in Regulation 1 as “a game in which two teams compete against each other”). With the appeal process having been exhausted, World Rugby will refer the interpretation of the regulation to the Regulations Committee when it meets in September to examine the findings in the context of the game’s regulations to ensure universal clarity and compliance with the meaning of the regulation moving forward.
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@Stargazer said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
And by respect he means publicly shit on the decision.
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@antipodean Yeah, he was criticised for that on twitter and replied with this (the original tweet has been deleted):
I think that "I can disagree personally" is bullshit, because he tweeted the link to that WR media release straight after those earlier tweets. He's a public person/person in a high (public) position of WR, so he should assume that everything he posts on social media will be seen as a WR statement, unless he clearly states in the same tweet that it's his personal opinion only. And even then ...
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Always liked Pichot the player back in the day. He's been a bit of a dick since joining WR.
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Foster makes an interesting point
Ironically, if someone gets red-carded in this particular match they will have to go through a judiciary hearing as they would in any other competitive match. I think it's hypocritical to say that one player can be suspended for an illegal act in a match, but another player can't use that match to live out a suspension
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@Nepia said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
Always liked Pichot the player back in the day. He's been a bit of a dick since joining WR.
Has he?
Seems to me he just went on a mission to get rid of project players, don't recall too much else myself.
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@Stargazer said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
@antipodean Yeah, he was criticised for that on twitter and replied with this (the original tweet has been deleted):
I think that "I can disagree personally" is bullshit, because he tweeted the link to that WR media release straight after those earlier tweets. He's a public person/person in a high (public) position of WR, so he should assume that everything he posts on social media will be seen as a WR statement, unless he clearly states in the same tweet that it's his personal opinion only. And even then ...
I think you are overreacting. The fact he 'retweeted' the WR statement doesn't really mean much.
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@Nepia said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
Always liked Pichot the player back in the day. He's been a bit of a dick since joining WR.
Except for improving the international eligibility rules in his first 5 minutes.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
@Stargazer said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
@antipodean Yeah, he was criticised for that on twitter and replied with this (the original tweet has been deleted):
I think that "I can disagree personally" is bullshit, because he tweeted the link to that WR media release straight after those earlier tweets. He's a public person/person in a high (public) position of WR, so he should assume that everything he posts on social media will be seen as a WR statement, unless he clearly states in the same tweet that it's his personal opinion only. And even then ...
I think you are overreacting. The fact he 'retweeted' the WR statement doesn't really mean much.
Nah, just a reaction. Don't care enough to overreact.
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From a team perspective. I'd rather SBW was suspended for Bledisloe but got some good match practice in the non-game of 3 halves. He's going to be undercooked.
I would have thought a common sense judgement by the judiciary would have seen the non-game as a non-game and none of their business whether SBW or even Simon fucking Whareorere played in it, and UFC rules applied, with Greg Cooper v Richard Loe as
halfthird time entertainment, and Loe v Carozza as the other third time entertainment . Given it's a non-game.WR should concentrate on improving their competence in the non-financial areas of the sport, eg the governance.
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While World Rugby respects the decision of the independent appeal committee to uphold the appeal by New Zealand’s Sonny Bill Williams against the matches that counted towards his four-week suspension, it is surprised by the committee’s interpretation of the definition of “match” (which is defined in Regulation 1 as “a game in which two teams compete against each other”).
Are they trying to say that two teams aren't competing against each other in this match?
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@KiwiMurph said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
Foster makes an interesting point
Ironically, if someone gets red-carded in this particular match they will have to go through a judiciary hearing as they would in any other competitive match. I think it's hypocritical to say that one player can be suspended for an illegal act in a match, but another player can't use that match to live out a suspension
I made the same point earlier in the thread. It would have been funny if they upheld that it wasn't a match then cited someone during it.
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@Crucial not to mention, if they were saying it didnt count as a match under his, he should have then been free to play in this match that didnt count.
Just highlights more ineptitude from the powers that be that this has even become an issue.
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I don't have an issue with how this has played out. Due process has not been denied. A set of arguments were put forth. The game of three halves is a concept match which I would've had doubts over as well.
The judicial review was allowed to happen and a different outcome has been achieved. It doesn't speak to competence or lack thereof when this happens. Just speaks to different views and interpretation. Happens on a regular basis in all areas of law including sport.
What will the coaches will do with Sonny. I think he will start with Crotty. ALB or Reiko on the bench
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taniwharugbyreplied to ACT Crusader on 4 Aug 2017, 08:23 last edited by taniwharugby 4 Aug 2017, 08:24
@ACT-Crusader I think the fact that the ban was handed down, and then only last week they decided to make a decision on whether the game of 3 halves constituted a real game was the issue.
Pretty sure the schedule of matches that SBW may have been eleigible to play in would have been known at the time of the ban, therefore to turn around weeks later and make decisions about the games he may have played in, is IMO incompetence.
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I do think that is either a silly blunder by Pichot or a slip that shows that WR expect their 'independent' panels to rule as their paymasters expect.
His response to people pointing this out only makes things worse. He had the opportunity to back down and admit that is was not a comment he should make but didn't.
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So who and when was it determined that the game of three halves would have sanctions etc?
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@taniwharugby said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
@ACT-Crusader I think the fact that the ban was handed down, and then only last week they decided to make a decision on whether the game of 3 halves constituted a real game was the issue.
Pretty sure the schedule of matches that SBW may have been eleigible to play in would have been known at the time of the ban, therefore to turn around weeks later and make decisions about the games he may have played in, is IMO incompetence.
There's a few assumptions in there TR.
Obviously it was a disputed issue around the games. That doesn't seem that unusual to me when one of those is this game of three halves which has more of a practice feel to it than anything. Now the status of that game appears to have been reviewed and given official status for the purposes of sanctions etc.
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@ACT-Crusader said in All Black Squad for Rugby Championship:
So who and when was it determined that the game of three halves would have sanctions etc?
Good question.
No one has to go to WR and ask permission to hold a game. My guess would be that in order to provide safeguards to player welfare the NZRU would do the usual stuff like appoint a ref and a citing framework under the guidelines. They couldn't really hold the game without them.Also, as an aside, the term 'Game of Three halves' is a marketing one. It is important to understand that no one team plays more than two halves of rugby. IMO it is a very clever solution to providing the ABs a decent hit-out while promoting provincial rugby.
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